If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

The kids still drop litter/stick gum to the undersides of desks/swear at staff/ try to smoke where they think they are out of sight etc etc.
*
This is what we considered very bad behaviour in the secondary school I went to. I think it sounds so tame now compared to the horror stories nowadays. A girl died as a direct result of bullying in the local secondary where I live now.

wow Moominmammaatsea that's amazing - your DD is awesome

Mbosnz

If she gets a place, she thinks she will most probably decline it,

If she’s going to decline it then what on earth is the point of applying?

Because it is nicer!!!
I went to the local comp, no other option where I lived. I have 3As, 1st class degrees from Oxbridge. I would have got this anywhere.
Great schools are good for the average as it bumps them up. I met plenty of kids at Oxbridge from great schools who were pretty average and would never have got their results at a lesser school.
My children now go to really good schools. I worry about the pressure but they won't have to deal with the same scariness and social issues I had to.

It's not just about being naturally bright though is it? They also have to be hard working and keen to do well. One of my dc taught themselves gcse physics through YouTube lectures because their physics teacher at their average school was crap (got an A*)

@Iamagree I was lucky enough to be bought up in the care system so can count 14 different schools in the first 17 years, all in london from haringey to chelsea(by chelsea i mean finsbury park)
But thanks for assuming I understand privilege..thats unique

It is honestly rich people (aka women) with nothing better to do with their time
If youre worried About gordonstone and the like, get off mumsnet.
Make yourself rich stop worrying about your kids

seriously who is desperate about this?

A bright child will do well in an average school. However, they will do better in a private or grammar.

I went to the local comp, which was average but really good for extra-curricular. I managed AAAB (ore-A* days) and have degrees from 2 elite universities and a successful carer. So that supports your thesis.

However... I do have moments where I go cold realising how very close I came to disaster: I was in the school's top sets for every subject but one. In those top sets the students were fairly well motivated and the teachers good. In maths I started in the top set, but a new pupil came who was better than me, and I was dropped into the second of five sets. In that 2nd set, the pupils just didn't want to be there, the teacher was appallingly bad, could not control the class, and as no one could hear him, he set exercises from the textbook each lesson and then sat with his head in his hands. At first I tried to work, but I needed help and he was either dealing with other pupils who were shouting, singing, throwing chairs, or sitting and not engaging at all. It was incredibly difficult to get any work done because of the noise and distractions. Try doing maths in the middle of a children's birthday at the soft play, and you'd understand.

My grades got worse and worse, I became less and less motivated. I learned nothing in four years with this teacher. Luckily my parents were able to get me a little private tutoring, and thanks to that I (just) scraped a C. If I hadn't got that C, I wouldn't have been allowed to continue to A-level, let alone study A-level science and apply to the top universities in the country. No way would I have got into my career.

I reckon if you're very capable in a subject, you'll probably still do pretty well in a not-so-good comp, but if there's any subject where you are weak, the cracks will show, and you'd better hope it's not something like maths or English.

DD is similar to me, bright and in top sets, but not as confident in maths. She tends to bob around at the bottom of the top set and top of the second set, at her junior school. She needs that extra bit of time and guidance in maths, and for that reason we think she will do better at a private school.

Why wouldn’t you? Of course you’d want your child to get an education without having to fight and struggle so hard for it. And in a poorly performing low aspiration state secondary, my god it’s a struggle to get as good grades as you could in an environment that values and nurtures an academic outlook.

I was an A student in a low achieving state school. Basically sitting in lessons doing nothing while the teacher was fire fighting the disruptive behaviour of the same few kids every lesson. No TA’s, no funding for anything like that. Behaviour policy non existent. I only did well because my parents bought me gcse revision guides and I self taught most of it.

Even the teachers were disapproved of my desire to learn. It was on my school report that I was academically able but not tolerant of those with less ability. How they came up with that I dont know, I was too scared to talk in classes So just sat there with a neutral expression (less likely to get noticed and bullied).

It’s affected my confidence for my whole working career. So many years I thought it was my fault and I somehow deserved the teachers derision. Why I’d want my kids, bright or not, to have the experience?, well god knows!

For a start, I didn't want my kids in a school where other pupils throw chairs in class and swear at teachers.

Plus, as a former bright child myself, it is really dull sitting waiting for others in the class to get endless explanations, rather than moving through topics at a speed better suited to your own abilities.

Hopeful we’ve experienced the exact opposite at our supposedly Outstanding grammar.

The data shows the difference between a grammar and average comp is 0.3 of a GCSE grade.

You aren't less likely to be bullied at an outstanding school or a grammar or private.

In the end it comes down to parents wanting everything to be the best for their children, nothing wrong with that at all.

Its when people dress it up as a necessity because their child would have failed if they hadn't gone somewhere else, or try to make out like their local comp is so dire its unthinkable (often on here).

I remember a few years back a woman at a dinner I was at discussed the dreadful local comp (scandalous and riotous behaviour, terrible results, poor teachers who left quickly, dreadful results),I listened carefully interested to see where she was describing, wondering where could be that bad?

Dear reader, she was describing the large comprehensive where I was head of 6th form, that had just recieved an outstanding from OFSTED. Where 78 percent or our 300 year 11s had achieved 5 or more a to cs at gcse including maths and English (same now with 1 to 9 system), and our A level results put us in the top 100 state schools in the country.

I didn't put her straight. I just drank a lot more wine and laughed about it.

For a start, I didn't want my kids in a school where other pupils throw chairs in class and swear at teachers.

What will you do when they start drinking in pubs?

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

Because people talk bollocks, is the short answer.

Because people talk bollocks?

Or is that what all the research, peer reviewed and replicated over a great number of years has shown.

How accurate your critique was, do enlighten us more.

Moomin, I've actually shed a tear at your post. .

No I certainly would not begrudge her a school where she can fit in.

Im pretty confident my dc’s will do better at their academically selective private schools than they would’ve at the local state high school. But Gcse results aren’t the be all and end all - that’s not why we did it. We want our dcs to have opportunities that we didn’t have and to be encouraged to aim high and achieve the very best they can in life.
They are more likely to do this in a school that celebrates and rewards academic success with likeminded children from likeminded families. Dh and I are working class and from modest backgrounds. We both went to pretty bad schools but managed to do well in our exams. I wouldn’t want my kids to go to a school like the one I did.

I Often get slightly passive aggressive comments from “friends” about how kids will do well wherever they go and that private school isnt a guarantee of success in life. No, but it’s how we choose to spend our money and it’s nobody else’s business. Some people just don’t get it, or choose not to because they’re envious. I just smile and nod.

Must add a caveat here, it isn't "bright children" its children who's parents take an interest in their education from a young age do well wherever they go.

Which of course the parents striving for the grammars and privates are.

I went to a comprehensive school in the 80's that was so poorly performing that it was closed down the year I left. I rarely attended, bunked off a lot and there were no parent fines in those days. My brother did the same. He is a professor at a top University, and I have a PhD and an Oxford fellowship behind me. You can make it in poor schools if you are bright, but going to a good school gives children confidence and social skills. I home school my two children. They have previously been educated in State primary schools but my eldest child is bright, and the local secondary schools within a 10 mile radius have terrible GCSE and Ofsted reports. Nothing on the open days inspired me, and students were fighting at one school in the playground as I arrived. Having worked with academics who went to grammar or private schools, had the best tutors and hobby experiences then it is easy to see how having the right early exposures affects later achievements. It is possible for bright kids to do well in any school, but it is much easier if they go to a good school.

Every parent thinks their child is super bright
I have one who is.

Most are very average
My other four are.

Sometimes, occasionally, it's actually true that a child is exceptional.

It's not just about grades, it's about friendships, and having a happy positive experience in the your young life.

They don't. IN a sense I wanted to buy a peer group of people who were the top 20% by IQ, from stable homes, reasonably well off and who were committed to working hard and where 100% of the class would go to good universities as lots of teenagers just copy their peers at that stage, not do what their parents say.

I was happy to pay school fees for 5 children at day schools from age 5 - 18 as did my parents for me and my sibilings.

Totally agree OP

It's bollocks and a "comforting lie"

I was a bright child in a state comp as were several friends

We did well.

Would we all have done MUCH better in a private or grammar without persistent bullying, totally different culture RE celebrating academic achievement and a over focus on the most poorly behaved?

Absofuckinglutely