If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

Often the best performing schools provide opportunities and extra-curriculars that are more focussed at the ambitions of the student?

That's pretty much the only reason why my daughter, who is highly achieving in a comprehensive, has applied to a select grammar. If she gets a place, she thinks she will most probably decline it, though, as she is known at her current school, valued, a prefect, and knows the teachers and fellow students. Also, there are opportunities offered to her in what she wants to do by a top university that are only available to those NOT in the independents, grammars, etc.

Totally agree with you, and find this is most often said by people who have no idea of how appalling an education in a very challenging school can be.

Bright children tend to do well in genuine comprehensive schools with a mix of abilities. They don't tend yo do well in secondary moderns (aka 'comprehensive' schools in grammar areas). So it becomes a bit of a problem when all the middle class families either move house or tutor their kids into grammars as the remaining schools don't have a genuine mix and yes that kind of environment isn't great for any kid, especially a bright one.

I think people say things like that to reassure parents who haven’t got the school of their choice, to be honest. Not every school puts students forward for Oxbridge, for example, so the school you go to can have a huge impact. The school system is horrendously unfair.

In Scotland you go to your catchment school so yes I believe in bright, work hard and you’ll do well, I have 4DC ; all state school ; 2 in uni and one in a great career, 1 still in school. If everyone avoids certain schools how do they ever improve their performance, personally think it’s snobbery. MN are obsessed with schools and bloody gcse’s.

We turned down a grammar place for one and didn't go down the suggested (by primary school) scholarship/bursary route for another because they opted not to do it. Both left the local comprehensive with As at GCSEs and A levels and got into the universities they wanted, they thrived (on the whole) in a less competitive environment which suited them. With the youngest, they didn't do the 11+ and we never entertained the idea of that or a scholarship application because we were more than happy with the comprehensive and still are.

I think they do well because they have parental support. So the parents find out what is on the curriculum, follow what they are doing, encourage the extra curricular, make up for the fact that the teaching is at a lower level (tutors, extra books etc) and make them believe that they should be learning all they can and have many options.
In my experience so far, some of that is done by grammar school and the teaching is at higher level. Bad if you get behind/find it hard, good if you want to cover all the work and get a high grade.

Most people are not bright
Just average

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools.

When my eldest started their school had been put in special measures 4 months earlier after we accepted the place. They left with 9 A grades at GCSE and A*AA at A level.

I have this debate with myself a lot. I went to a pretty crappy state school. It is on the list that Bristol use for schools that underachieve in terms of high education destinations. I got 3 As at A-level and a string of A*s at GCSE but was always annoyed that my parents didn’t put me in for the grammar school tests. My natural cleverness got my those grades and not the environment. In practice, my grades might not have been much different if I’d gone to the grammar but it might have made the difference between me getting into oxford or not (as was the case for me). There was a lot of disruption at school and I tended to hide my abilities and not put up my hand etc. It wasn’t a school that instilled confidence or made me do lots of extra curricular things. For one of my subjects at GCSE I was sat next to a girl that got a G in it. The jump then to A-level was massive. There were some great teachers but some terrible ones.my school was particularly bad at science. I don’t think anyone left to do medicine for the entire time I was there.

If I can afford it, I will be sending my children to private secondary school. I’d love them to have a better experience of school than I did and to achieve their full potential. I firmly believe many high achievers are failed by mediocre schools despite what the grades on paper might be.

Ergo your average kid at Harrow will so much better than your average kid at burley comp.
Really bright kids - it doesn’t matter much.
But they are VERY few and far between

Because bright children DON'T always do well wherever they go.

I didn't. I was straight A* pupil upon leaving primary school but left a crap comp without any qualifications at all. That was due to horrendous bullying, low aspirations, disruption, crap teachers, etc.

My real education started again once I'd left. I taught myself A levels, then did my professional qualification alongside working full time.

My 5 years at the crap comp were the worst of my life and I was suicidal.

I was straight A pupil upon leaving primary school

How did your school come up with that grade?

I totally agree.

Dd passed her 11plus. Here actual admission goes on distance. So everyone with a score over x passes and the closest 200 kids get in. So she didn’t get in.

She went to a rough comp in the next town which has dismal results. She did ok, but nowhere near as well as what she’d probably have done. It’s hard to concentrate or even have any effective teaching when kids are fighting, teachers are sat on the floor crying, high turnover of staff as behaviour is so poor, teachers are trying to desperately help kids who are struggling to pass anything. The kids who they know will pass got left to drift. She got Bs and Cs.

Went to a better school for sixth form and got better teaching and got Bs and that was while affected by chronic illness.

My eldest DD went to a school with below average results, same for 6th form.

She got AAA at her A levels with no extra tutoring. There were a about 10 kids at her secondary who got a large majority of A and As, about a handful who got 3 A levels with a mix of As and A*s.

Er they aren't OP. They send them to their local school mostly.
MN isn't real world and isn't representative.

I’m not interested in my bright dd getting good grades. Im not interested in top test scores. I’m interested in her learning that studying takes effort. I’m interested in her not being bored by the curriculum. I’m interested in her getting to spend time with peers her Inspire her.

Dd goes to an extremely high rated school in our country. It doesn’t just rank high in test scores or on school review websites, it wins national awards. Dd is still bored with the regular curriculum. She is still learning disdain for her less bright peers. When she gets taken into special groups for advanced students she thrives, but those are special pull outs, not all day classes. She is so excited to be learning and really getting to stretch without sitting through repetitive lessons. We send her to summer camps geared towards bright students and she is in heaven.

Since Dd is stifled at our top performing school, I can’t even fathom how bad it would be at a school that is struggling.

To put it bluntly, so that their children don’t have to hang out with drop kick kids. We recently changed schools for this reason. The school and the kids and the parents were rough as guts. There were more behavioural issues, more poverty, the teachers couldn’t teach because they were so busy sorting out all the crap going on at home.

People want their children to be the best they can possible be, not just do ok, or ‘well’ in relation to the ones that don’t achieve highly. I’d say it’s more about wanting your children to be in an environment where academic achievement is expected and normalised, rather than being surrounded by peers who don’t value education, or in an environment where they could be easily led into undesirable behaviour.

Natural intelligence doesn’t automatically come with the best attitude to learning, and it is simply not true that bright children will do well no matter where they go.

Because their children aren’t bright and need all the help they can get?

I think it is more the same as all parents- wanting to be sure their child gets the very best chances in life and if there is any question that it will make a difference they want to be sure. Plus networking and the socialising with the “right sort of people” that can actually make a huge difference if you are going on to have that sort of a life of business.

@purple
learning disdain for her less bright peers
Is that a typo?

It depends how bright.
I got 3As at A Level (before A* existed) in a really shit college.
But my school wasn't great either. I got good GCSEs (3A* and the rest A), but I don't know if I was capable of better. I had a blast at school though and am really glad I went there.

Children thrive with peers, so if they are bright, that means other bright children. They also thrive if they aren't bullied, and they are less likely to be bullied at a school where academic achievement is valued by the students.

To be surrounded by academic, like minded kids rather than have the shit ripped out of them for wanting to work hard and do well.