If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

@Phineyj
That's not our experience in Surrey - local state primary school 2 miles down the road, a choice of state secondaries (the one we chose was just over 8 miles away), and a choice of 6th form options (also 8 miles away but in the opposite direction and actually in Berks.)
Most of the people we know who have chosen private education in our area never considered state schools.

I can’t believe how many of us had such a bad secondary school experience. I was bullied, school was full of underachievers. It was awful. It is an absolute miracle I came out of there with the grades that I did.

There are huge gaps in my knowledge, things I have never been taught. I wanted better for my children. They all went to grammar schools, the rest is up to them
All DC would have gaps in their knowledge if we just relied on school for education. We never hothoused or hired tutors but DH and just made educating the DC part of life. Admittedly in stuff we love - science, maths, history, geography, they have gaps in arts. Stuff that's not on any curriculum.

Most bright children aren’t super bright so they can maybe do with the push of private schools. I went to a comp and got straight As so couldn’t have done better in a private school. Someone who maybe got less good grades but was still pretty bright might have. There’s other aspects I suppose like disruption, lack of motivation, poverty etc which will all have an impact too

God I hate the “life isn’t fair” argument.
Because it is undeniable?

No it isn’t until we do something about it. Children can’t help being born black, gay, female, clever or whatever. We try and level the field.
But we don’t do this at the expense of others.

Of course money buys you a better education. But how can you not be shocked that 7% are privately educated but hold 50% of the top jobs?
That’s a different issue. You’ll find that most of those are from a handful of private schools. It isn’t about private schooling, it is about an old boys network. The vast majority of private schools wouldn’t give you that advantage either.

We don’t say “ life’s not fair” to women, we work hard to find systems to get more women in the boardroom.

We don’t get women in to the boardroom by saying men should be excluded. Banning private schools will do nothing to improve the education and opportunity for pupils from poorer families. It will mean there are fewer places available for them at the more sought after schools. It will lead to a bigger divide in the state system.

We can improve their chances by making sure the state system is better across the board.

I think it’s something people say when they don’t understand how bad disruption can be in schools.

And we wonder why we're raising a generation of narcissistic, low resilience, entitled snowflakes?

This thread is truly disheartening...

notwaving I hear you! Together with their gap 'yahh' they think they have an idea of reality. It's laughable. I'd much rather my kids were in the microcosm of society that a real, comprehensive school is.

My friends' DC go to private school (her DHs choice) and she has always hated the snobbery of the other parents. Not towards her, but towards scholarship kids and those families not seen to have 'status'. They scramble to be her friend but she knows it's only because her DH is successful, well-known and well- off. Thankfully, she gives them short shrift.

I believe a big reason for people choosing selective schools is a filtered peer group. The most disruptive kids won't generally pass the exam. Even if your child is bright, most people don't want them in a class with disruptive children. Selective school is their way out, even though most people won't admit that's the reason!

I think that very bright and self motivated DC will do well wherever. But such DC are by definition the exception. Statistically, most children are not especially bright. Obviously the vast majority of children are within the average and below average group, if you consider bright as in Oxbridge or leading Russel Group unis material, what is like 5 to 10% max of the population? Most parents will worry, or rather rationally assume, that their child is not exceptionally bright and therefore will be looking for every way they can to support their DC and focus more on nurture than nature.

I don't think it's supporting my DC to buy them educational advantage. I think it's teaching them that market values trump social values. I want them to know that their achievements are because of who they are, not how much money we have.

TulipCat, where on earth does this idea that state schools are full of 'disruptive kids' come from? Apart from anything else, it's pretty insulting to the teachers. Most of the ones I've met are more than capable of controlling the class.

I am a teacher in a high-achieving independent girls' school. I have worked in state schools and another independent mixed school. One of the state schools I worked in was in an area of deprivation and massively opened my eyes. At my current school we are entitled to 50% off the fees, so we have struggled financially to send both our DDs there to give them the best start in life. The opportunities are incomparable. The class sizes are literally half the size of similar state schools classes and (most) of the other students in their classes are extremely well-behaved, leading to a very safe and pleasant campus to be in, with happy teachers, polite, well-behaved students and excellent opportunities.

As a teacher, I do believe that bright children will succeed anywhere they are educated, but imho, the more children in the class, the less time the teacher can spend with each pupil. I have friends who are teachers in state schools - some of them have classes where the majority of students do not speak English, many have SEN requirements, some have behavioural issues and others are bright and require extra support. It's virtually impossible to cater for everyone's individual needs and you almost always end up spending the most time with the most demanding pupils, which can massively negatively impact the other students' learning.

I am envious of my daughters' education and my life would have been very different if I had experienced an education like theirs.

I am aware that there are lots of excellent state schools, but even simply for the class sizes alone, independent schools are often worth the money. They are not perfect and yes, with money comes a different set of issues. I don't want to come across as a terrible snob, but when I drive past our local comprehensive, it really scares me to think about my DDs going there and mixing with some of the characters coming and going. The buildings look awful and are in desperate need of modernisation. The staff look exhausted and depressed, and some of the parents picking up and dropping off look like they can't look after themselves, let alone their kids!

I have worked three jobs in the past to afford this kind of education and made a lot of sacrifices for their benefit. I just wish there were better state schools around, to give people more options, as it's completely unfair for hard-working, caring parents to have to send their children to schools which are failing.

I went to an underperforming state secondary school. I got good results - 6A*s and 4 As - so from a purely academic point of view, I probably wouldn't have done much better at a grammar or private school. However, I was one of a tiny handful of high achievers in a school where the culture amongst pupils was vocally anti-intellectual and expectations from both staff and students were low. Very little in the way of extension or extra-curricular opportunities, and I was miserable for most of my time there.

School is about more than just results, and an environment where working hard and being intellectually curious isn't cool is a really miserable place to spend five years if you want to do well.

I now teach in a selective private school, and will have no qualms about sending my own children to a similar school.

This is the perennial lie that people tell themselves to make themselves feel better.

Obviously the better the school, the better the quality of staff, the better the amenities/support and the better the opportunities.

That's not to say your child will be happier in a private school or that they will achieve. Some kids are not cut out for that environment and some kids need constant pushing no matter where they are.

@Grumpyoldpersonwithcats sounds great! And totally unlike the situation where I live. I still think you would have a shortage of places if the privates didn't exist though (although I suppose the govt could offer them inducements to convert, 1960s style).

Phineyj, there would be no shortage of places if private schools didn't exist, because there would be no drop in the number of schools. They would simply be converted into state schools.

Ds is very bright

He is also very easily distracted and has a tendency to be lazy

So no he wouldn’t thrive in any school

notwaving absolutely!

Felicisnox where on earth do you get the idea that the 'better' the school the 'better' the staff. That's preposterous. What are you basing this on? Better teachers because the kids are better behaved ( because their parents are paying)? How absurd. I work with the most inspiring teachers and have CHOSEN to work in a deprived area my entire, professional life because of the good I can do. It takes a special teacher to inspire those who, by their background, are often harder to inspire. I take the risk of coming across as all ' Oh Captain, my captain ' but you come across as an out and out snob, as, despite you not wishing to, you also do countingthedays. And, by the way, I love my job so don't count the says until Friday.

What they’d just hand over all the buildings and land would they ? @notwavingbutdrowning5

Days not says

As a recruiter, when I’m presenting an offer to a candidate we discuss the whole package, the environment, the conditions, the package, and the candidate weighs it all up before accepting a position. Now what one teacher might consider a better school another might not but it’s all down to the individual. Equally if a private school really wants a candidate they have potentially more means to get their man or woman

Bright motivated children are likely to do well in any school if they are happy/no other problems.

I don’t believe the same as true of an equally bright but unmotivated child.

I was bright but not super bright and highly motivated. Went to ‘good’ local comprehensive. Was badly bullied - which could happen anywhere - and was very unhappy. Got top exam results but mainly off my own back.

My sister started at the same school (I was 6th form by then) - she is brighter than me but unmotivated and not interested in education. She fell in with the pervading ethos of ‘it is cool to do no work and doss about’ and made no progress, not achieving her potential. My parents moved her to a local independent and she Wasn’t able to get away with coasting and ended up with good results. Definitely better than she would have got at my school and she preferred the school.

My view, although I appreciate others may disagree, is that a reasonable set of qualifications provides options for later on and trying to help my dc achieve them is a top priority for me. Type of school less important than ethos, expectation and the ability of the school to not ignore the coasting middle.

What they’d just hand over all the buildings and land would they ?

Inliverpool1, how do you think the mines were nationalised?

It’s not just about the grades it’s about independence from the state system. That’s why we sent ours to independent schools. We chose to spend our money that way.