If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

Attending a ‘bog standard comprehensive school’ allows kids to experience a microcosm of what society and people are really like - that experience cannot be measured in grades!

Selective schools are great for people who continue to work in selective jobs where they will be associating with selective people!

And - not abs!

I am bright and went to a shit school
I did do ok and managed to get into a good uni on a difficult course ended up with 3degrees and a professional qualification but it was a fight the whole way - I would do anything to make that different for my kids, I want them to have every opportunity I can give them and support them to do the best they can rather than just do the minimum

For us it was the varied extra curricular opportunities, the high quality teaching and critically that the most T&G children were pushed hard to achieve be it at a RG uni or in to a competitive apprenticeship.

The school DD went to has quite the alumni.

She benefitted from being in that environment because if she'd been left to her own devices she'd have been a lazy mare. Because we were kept fully informed about gaps that needed plugging with extra tuition it meant she left with 10 A/A* GCSEs and three As and is now in a RG uni doing a professional degree. To balance that out her DB is the total opposite of her so he was sent to a less high achieving school that suited his needs.

She'd never have achieved that in a less achievement focussed school -due to her being a lazy mare-- She needed the discipline advocated at a top school.

I think the school can have a massive impact. The secondary school I went to was very poor. The teachers spent a lot of time dealing with disruptive students, some lessons we literally had no teacher as they were off round the school looking for the kids. I was also bullied and inevitably it impacted on my grades. I didn't get great GCSE's or A'Levels but later managed to complete my degree and also a Master's degree. I do think the school environment had a massive impact on my confidence and has ultimately affected my career choices. When it came to picking a secondary school for my daughter, behaviour management was inevitably at the top of the list of things I looked at.

A child needs to not only be bright to do well anywhere but also come from a solid supportive family, have enough peers that they aren't isolated, have decent teaching that doesn't include a rotating carousel of supply teachers, resilience, a solid sense of self, be self-motivated. That child is frankly as rare as hens teeth. Of course the environment matters. Being subjected to bullying and disruptive kids in class does not lead to a rounded world view. People are kidding themselves. Of course the school and environment matters. It matters enormously to not only the academic but social and emotional outcomes of children.

It's a reassurance statement in my experience used by various groups. Some parents don't get the school they would like (and they like it for the wrong reasons anyway), others can't be bothered to pay attention to it and use this statement as justification. I'm sure there are more. As a lecturer, it makes my ears bleed.

Unfortunately your experience mirrors my own and I totally agree with you ... my daughter has just done the 11+ and has been offered a place at an independent school, she may do just as well, grade wise, at a comprehensive but I hated the disruptive and often aggressive environment and the lack confidence instilled in the pupils.

I went to a comprehensive school full of kids who couldn’t be bothered to learn and just wanted to mess about. It was the most miserable seven years of my life. I was a top student at primary but didn’t achieve my potential at secondary level. For some kids, it won’t make a difference because they are confident and calm enough not to be bothered by what’s going on around them. DS1 is like that and I am sure would do well wherever he went to. DS2 is like me. I know that he would really struggle in a comprehensive so I am not going to put him through the trauma. I will continue to work my backside off to put them both through private school.

It’s not just about grades, I moved my daughter to a private school last year, it will just be for the last two years of primary unfortunately as we can’t afford to send her to a private secondary school. She was a confident kid anyway but the difference is scary, best decision we have ever made.

Having watched 10yo ds made miserable & stressed with SATs in year 6, we chose a local non-selective independent school for its smaller class sizes and calm, non-stressy atmosphere.

They aren't flashy but they got everyone through gcse maths & English for the last five years despite taking any ability, and have generally good grades.

'If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?'

Everyone isn't. My kids went to their local, fairly average school. One is at university in London, one's going to Oxford. I wouldn't have sent them to a private school or a selective school if someone had paid me to. In fact, at my DC's Oxford interview, she was absolutely appalled by the ignorance and naivety, combined with stunningly misplaced levels of self-confidence, exhibited by many of the private-school students she met.

Everyone is desperate because they are anxious about their kids futures and believe the good school will make a difference. Many parents are like @Villanomme and believe that the Russell grp uni (and or professional degree) are important. I suspect this is seen as important because parents think this will make their kids successful...depends I guess on what you mean by success. I know plenty of 'successful' adults who anxious, miserable and depressed. Actually often because of societal and parental expectations. Many of whom would be much happier doing what they would find fulfilling which often does not require fab A-levels or Russell Grp Uni degrees
I don't know what future careers might make my children happy and fulfilled, I know if they needed higher level qualifications that eventually they'd get there (irrespective of their original school or grades). Many very successful adults find their groove in their 20's or 30's. School choice might be less important ....maybe we should all chill out?

If the grades are statistically very similar has there been analysis of final educational outcome at tertiary level, or even pay?

Iriahm if you have never set foot in one of these schools how can you know what they're like?! I teach in one of 'these' schools because I chose to. The standard of teaching in my school is far, far better than in supposed 'better' schools where many of my friends' children are told to get a tutor if they want top grades. In our school teachers bend over backwards as we know our pupils cannot afford tuition. There are schemes before, after and during school.and at weekends to support all different pupils- high flyers/ those that struggle/ sporty kids/ creative kids/ practical kids/ ASN kids/ kids with emotional/ social issues. It's how a senior leadership run a school that counts. Try not to sneer at the 'rough' kids as we're trying super hard to overcome their adverse childhood experiences and provide them with a positive destination.

My own DC go to a large comprehensive and are excelling. They interact with every type of pupil and are becoming rounded individuals.

In their catchment school in Glasgow, shock, horror.

The thing that surprises me is in an area with good state schools (Surrey) there is still a high demand for private places.

Grumpyoldpersonwithcats, it isn't really anything to do with the quality of the education; it's to do with exclusivity. Someone I knew said that he sent his kids to a private school so they would mix with middle-class children like themselves rather than the hoi polloi. People pay to put their kids in a hermetically sealed social bubble. And they pay so that doors will open more easily for them once they leave school.

She'd never have achieved that in a less achievement focussed school -due to her being a lazy mare-- She needed the discipline advocated at a top school

This is buying educational advantage - I teach a lot of young people like this. They take some time to understand that university isn't like school and we don't monitor them as they were monitored & pushed at school. OMG, some of the whining we get because of that.

I went to a terrible comprehensive school on a sink estate, thirty years later it is still in special measures. There are huge gaps in my knowledge, things I have never been taught. I wanted better for my children. They all went to grammar schools, the rest is up to them. I feel I gave them the best education we could afford. If I was rich, I would still favour a grammar over a private school.

My own DC go to a large comprehensive and are excelling. They interact with every type of pupil and are becoming rounded individuals.

Snoopdogsbitch, I think this is so important. My DC have a grasp of the realities of life as most people live it. In the nearest private school, sixth formers get a fortnight volunteering at a school in Malawi as a way of experiencing 'real life'. They come back thinking they're Mother Theresa and convinced that charity is perfectly acceptable. It's pitiful.

Dolobabelle, yes, absolutely. State school children tend to be far better at working independently once they get to university. I knew someone who taught in a private school and she told me that the children there were spoonfed every step of the way.

The secondary school that my son would attend, based on our address, is nicknamed The Pharmacy. We're currently looking for alternatives...

@hettie

Many parents are like @Villanomme and believe that the Russell grp uni (and or professional degree) are important nice editing of what I actually put. If you read all of my post you'd see quite clearly that that isn't the case with me at all. My son is not at a school like my daughter because he's just not that kind of child, he wouldn't thrive in such a school, he'd struggle. And he won't be getting top grades or doing a degree of any kind and do you know what? That's ok.

So please do not paint me as someone who does this. It was right for dd and it's not right for ds.

Mine did.
Haven't RTT but both DC went to local comp in special measures.
Both got all A* at A level and got firsts at RG unis (maths and biology).
When I see all the fuss about grammars and private education I just think an A* is worth the same wherever you got it.

I don't understand a system relying on teenagers to motivate themselves. It doesn't fit mentally with where many of them are at.