to find it impossible to forgive Brexiters

[mrsmootoo]

Can't forgive Brexiters for voting Leave. Find it impossible to move on from this. If there are any positives about leaving EU (?!) they are far outweighed by Remaining. Brexit posts on social media are so aggressive and unpleasant - you lost get over it. Really concerned about my kids' prospects, not being able to travel/work abroad as easily etc.

I do wonder about the EU.
They lose a massive amount of money yet want to increase their budgets.
They have had years to face the truth, but instead have decided to just tell everyone pay more.
Some countries are now seeing they will become the cash cows we were, and the people of the countries are now watching the UK with interest to see if it is possible to escape.

@corduroyal

I find that hard to believe as that goes completely against free movement.

It's a bit heartless of me but ... I've realised that it's going to be kind of funny.
It's happening. The people who really wanted it have it. It's not my responsibility.
And it is going to be a tragi-comedy.
I would suggest digging in for the long-term (20 years) & just silently laughing at the mess.

Exactly what dh and my family have decided to do, the people who voted for this now have to own it and it's going to be farce.

We are ok, we have our own home, money in the bank, so why should I worry about a lot of turkeys who've voted for xmas. We're giving more to charities and that's my lot. I never thought I'd be the kind of person to think like this, but that's what Brexit has done.

And those little shits in the EU Parliament yesterday- what an utter embarrassment, the EU must be glad to see the back of us.

@Peregrina

It is though.... the majority of people voted because they felt that we had no control of our own borders.

It’s irrelevant whether the areas that voted to leave were low immigration areas, the issue is overall they feel like they have suffered as a consequence

No it doesn't chocawoka. There is nothing in EU free movement law that prevents member states returning a national of another member state who hasn't become a qualified person after the initial residence period. Honestly, read up.

Molly2002

I never said the EU was perfect, but realistically, we will likely unilaterally align with EU post Brexit.

From a lefty perspective, EU are
better than other regulatory superpowers with their Everything But Arms initiative imo.

Yes I would have raised ethics argument. Concern about India’s future growth ranks quite a bit further down my list of priorities considering DP has a business (national services based) that nevertheless may be negatively affected by loss of access to the single market.

Ultimately - lowering protection to reduce costs of imports will expose British industry to dangerous competition abroad.

As all FTAs are about trade offs between competing interests, to obtain our FTA with India which U.K. industries do you think the gov should secure lower tariffs for in order to support increased exports to India, and which currently protected U.K. industries will you agree to expose to greater competition from India in return?

I find that hard to believe as that goes completely against free movement.

You may find it hard to believe but its completely true and a quick google will verify it. I've repeatedly made the same point to you and you've ignored it.

I know what I'm talking about, I'm currently in the process of relocating to another EU country and theres a lot of paperwork. I need proof of funds and private health insurance. Failing to provide this will mean I have to leave after 90 days and will be refused residency.

It is rather worrying, but also incredibly telling, that there are Leave supporters arguing that EU membership has meant uncontrolled immigration, whilst being so badly informed that they disbelieve in the existence of the provisions that do exist to control it. Thinking that there's no way of removing people who aren't qualified persons is so very wrong that it ruins the person's entire argument.

But she didn't come up with that idea by herself. It's had massive traction. Think about why that might be, who would benefit from British people being so ignorant about what EU free movement law actually says.

the majority of people voted because they felt that we had no control of our own borders.

We had a lot more control than people were led to believe.

We had a lot more control than the government and border force chose to implement. The Tories have been defunding and downsizing the border force for years. They've been actively reducing the infrastructure required to properly control immigration and prevent illegal immigration.

Inward migration will continue because the economy requires it. There are 805,000 job vacancies in the UK and significant skills shortages that are increasingly being filled by migrants from beyond the EU.

These are the basics that the Brexiters either don't see, or deny. Which is scary because for many people it was the fundamental basis of their vote. I've heard more than a few Brexit voters suggest that they thought a leave vote would result in fewer Muslims in the UK. I've heard this straight from peoples mouths. If you voted Leave, you're on the same side as these people.

I can't forgive ignorance, especially wilful ignorance, on something so significant. People needed to inform themselves and millions evidently did not. I can't forgive those who made a decision that will reduce opportunities and make things harder for my career, my industry, my friends, my kids and grandkids.

Other EU countries have implemented this rule Chocowoka, it's just the usual incompetence of the UK government that haven't. Just like recouping money in the NHS when people from other countries use the NHS and we can reclaim the money, we are too lazy to do that, whereas other countries aren't.

Inspires you with so much confidence how they are going to sort out Brexit efficiently doesn't it!

Don't hang on to the bitterness, it's not worth it. I know remainers who are almost willing bad things to happen, for the 'idiots who voted for it' as they put it, to suffer the consequences. I'm not happy about it either but there is still a chance that it might not be so bad, nobody really knows what's going to happen do they? Just move on, this is what's happening now, all you can do is hope for the best.

It’s going to be shit but I don’t think there’s any point in harbouring hatred and bitterness any more. If and when it’s shit that will be all down to leavers. I guess it’s sad for my kids to have their rights as EU citizens taken away but they are young and bright, who knows what the future holds for them.

It was always possible to get EU migrants to return home after three months if they failed to find work/didn't have enough money to support themselves. UK politicians chose not to. Not the EU's fault.

It's not that easy to deport someone if they are a 'job seeker' or 'self-employed' -

"Can you be deported or asked to leave?"

"Your host country can ask you to leave if you can't prove that you have a realistic chance of finding work there."

"In exceptional cases, your host country can deport you on grounds of public policy, public security, or public health - but only if it can prove you pose a serious threat."

"The deportation decision or request to leave must be given to you in writing. It must state all the reasons for your deportation and specify how you can appeal and by when."

europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/residence/residence-rights/jobseekers/index_en.htm

Oh immigrants STEALING the minimum wage jobs? British farmers don't even advertise for pickers in Britain as you can't get Brits to do it. If the job centre tried to make them, they'll just rather loose their benefits We had more than 20% of the apples rotting on the ground in our region because the immigrants are hesitant to come now. We have a lack of teachers, nurses, midwife's and carers before we even had the Brexit vote and it I worse now as many of them has left due to Brexit. We are looking into private health care now. We dare not trust the NHS anymore.

Rough Sleepers:

"In 2016 the Home Office introduced its policy that rough sleepers from the EU and EEA are to be deported, as it claims it’s an abuse of the freedom of movement rights of EU nationals. Following this, two operations were launched in the UK to remove rough sleepers regardless of their residency rights and whether or not they were working."

"However, this policy has now been ruled as unlawful by the European high court thanks to legal cases brought forward by Polish and Latvian migrants.The court has also confirmed that the policy was discriminatory, and against both EU law and the residency rights of EEA nationals."

"The European commission added that all European citizens had a right to live in other EU countries “irrespective of whether they are homeless or not”.

eu-policies.com/news/european-court-rules-uk-cannot-deport-homeless-eu-nationals/

The chart when I voted was an ironic 52/48 split saying yabu. I voted Yanbu (and remain). I agree with you wholeheartedly. People have said 'find out their reasons - it may surprise you' ... leavers voted my rights and my citizenship away. Tomorrow I lose them against my will. What can they possibly say that will make me come to terms with that? Why on earth should I give them the opportunity to defend that? Why should I be interested in why they think their life will be better now I don't have freedom of movement and EU guaranteed workers rights (removed from the W.A by are glorious leader)?

Having been called a nazi and a traitor, to my face, for supporting remain - having been aggressively harassed by leave supporting men in public places (once on a train where I couldn't feasibly escape) how can the leave camp think they deserve for me to take the time to understand their viewpoint?

Voting is a responsibility as it comes with consequences. If you voted leave, then a direct consequence of your vote to remove my rights is that I will never forgive you and I will always think badly of you. You won. We're leaving. But you don't get my understanding, friendship or forgiveness - you have no right to those.

Should I ever stop being angry, it will be done purely for my sake of not wanting to carry this anger any longer and needing to move on - but you still won't be forgiven. Not ever.

I've heard some odd arguments about leaving but I have to say, being forced to learn a foreign language being described a a negative is one of the oddest yet.

I know some intelligent, informed people who voted to leave. They dislike the EU as an institution and feel that it is wrong that it became something other than a trading union. Fair play, that's what they believe. Their problem is that they are now aligned with people who come out with shit like 'but what if your children had to learn a foreign language?' Say what now? I'm the only one in my family not fluent in at least one other language and I consider it a personal failing on my part. If I'd had children I'd have packed them off to stay with grandma and granddad and learn to speak fluent French. It would have encouraged a broader mindset for a start.

"Just move on"

I work in healthcare technology innovation and my industry's already suffering due to falling inward investment, skill shortages and fewer collaboration opportunities. And that's just my personal experience to date, Brexit hasn't even happened yet my family are being disadvantaged. Opportunities are certain to be reduced for my kids. Prices are of many basics are near certain to rise when many people can't afford it.

How am I meant to move on?

Voting is a responsibility as it comes with consequences. If you voted leave, then a direct consequence of your vote to remove my rights is that I will never forgive you and I will always think badly of you. You won. We're leaving. But you don't get my understanding, friendship or forgiveness - you have no right to those.

This. You won. Now own your victory, and everything that comes with it.

Theres no law allowing someone to stay indefinitely as a jobseeker though clavinova and since 2014 the UK hasn't considered people workers if they didn't earn enough to pay Class 1 NI contributions... but we still didn't remove such people.

The other exemptions you mention are for people whose residence is already legal and established under EU law, which is different to someone who was never a qualified person in the first place.

I agree OP, and feel the same way. Well it’s not that I can’t forgive them, it’s more that I can’t forgive the self serving people who brought Brexit about in the first place. A long list of unscrupulous and self-serving arseholes in my opinion, which include Nigel Farage, Murdoch, Boris Johnson, everyone on the ERG etc....

Why is learning a foreign language a bad thing? It was compulsory when I was at school. It's a bloody shame that it isn't now.

This was kind of my point though. There was a conscious decision made to not do it anymore. Why is that, you think? And no, I don't feel that not joining the euro was resolved. I feel that if you are in the EU, you also need to adopt the euro. The UK wanted to be treated as an outsider on this point. You can't keep regarding ypurself as different from the other EU countries and then cry when the citizens don't understand why cohesion is a good thing here, and yes that might sometimes cost money, but you get good things back for it.

This was kind of my point though. There was a conscious decision made to not do it anymore. Why is that, you think?

Learning a foreign language tends to increase your facility with your own language. It broadens your way of thinking and gives you an insight into other cultures. It can increase your critical awareness. Now, if I wanted a compliant population and I wanted that population to be scared of Johnny Foreigner, and blame Johnny Foreigner for all the shit I pulled, I'd probably stop the need for learning foreign languages too.

Surely you will just need to apply for a visa to work/study in Europe?

Yep, as a non-EU migrant to Europe I guarantee it's that easy! You're all completely fucked going to be fine.

ConcernedAuntie

very good post, its exactly why I voted to leave