to find it impossible to forgive Brexiters

[mrsmootoo]

Can't forgive Brexiters for voting Leave. Find it impossible to move on from this. If there are any positives about leaving EU (?!) they are far outweighed by Remaining. Brexit posts on social media are so aggressive and unpleasant - you lost get over it. Really concerned about my kids' prospects, not being able to travel/work abroad as easily etc.

Democracy's a bitch.

FFS get over yourself!

Come up North, bask in the glory that was life under the EU.

Leave voters have no right to complain if people think they're thick when they come out with shit like this.

@fortunatelynot @Molly2002

Has a point on some of the comparisons and the thick stuff.

However, wants to drop tariffs to help other countries, so we lose jobs instead? or wages, working conditions and environmental standards drop so european industries can compete?

Didn't say how the UK will become prosperous, its exactly the same rhetoric as in 2016...a series of Wish lists and unplanned/unrealistic ambition, we are not acting in isolation, every country in the world is seeking to maximise trade and economic advantage.

Brexit is about cutting ourselves off from europe/eu, we will become rivals as each seek to protect themselves from what the other side will see as economic threat, EU finance will not be done in London over time, it will all move to the mainland, so will Airbus and the european car industries, political if not economic pressure will ensure this.

As one German govt minister said a while back "Germany is a small country, the large power blocs don't listen to Germany but they listen to the EU"
The UK has lost this influence.

Molly2002 post is naive imo.The EU is protectionist but we are in an increasingly protectionist world. EU has some of the best environmental standards in the world. That’s why they have the level playing field commitments to ensure that those who diverge from those standards by say keeping chickens in awful conditions or using dangerous chemicals on crops to increase yield, do not undercut them and that the market isn’t flooded with dangerous products. That’s before we start on the increased carbon footprint of making it more difficult to trade with neighbours in exchange for aim to export to countries very far away.

Also no thought given to gravity model - trade volumes half with every doubling of distance. This is empirically proven, an iron rule of trade.

The UK didn’t need FTAs to trade with other countries, Germany show that. They export 5 times more to China than we do, being in the EU hasn’t stopped them.

I guess people will find out soon enough that there are no sunlit uplands, and that the EU wasn't actually the cause of all their problems after all. On the contrary, they'll probably find that things get a whole lot worse.

I'd like to think that, in that scenario, people would reflect on their decision-making and realise that they made a bad choice, but of course they won't. What will actually happen is that they will start looking for a new scapegoat, someone else to blame for all of their problems.

I wonder where the finger will be pointed next?

The UK never really understood the point of the EU though. The EU is trying to create cohesion and boost all the positive points to make all the participating countries better. The UK didn't even want to adopt the euro. Too many people only speak english, while there are so many EU countries trading in german, spanish or a russian/czech based language. I wonder how many remainers would have still voted remain if they had to adopt the euro and the children would have to learn one or two big european languages all through secondary.

molly22 I switch off when people start bemoaning ‘unelected bureaucrats’ and berating British civil servants.

However I do wonder whether it bothers you that the uk is now effectively ‘shadow governed’ by our very own unelected bureaucrat, Dominic Cummings. Anyone who used to follow his narcissistic blog, at the time he was refusing to appear before the parliamentary select committee, should be very disturbed by this turn of events. The man obviously suffers from some sort of grandiosity disorder.

I'm at the point where I'm resigned to it, but in a way looking forward to a degree of Schadenfreude when all the Brexiters discover that, for the rest of the year, we're still subject to EU regulations without having any say about what that is. It should also be fun watching the outrage of the racists when they discover that immigration is still going on apace and their black neighbours aren't being made to get the next plane out of the country.

@jasjas1973

Thank you for your post. I believe that the arguments surrounding tariffs are complex, and I do not claim to be an expert on the levels of tariffs that should be used in this country. However, I actually was not talking about ‘dropping tariffs to help other countries’. Instead, I was referring to the EU tariffs on third countries which I believe should be reallocated to shift the burden of tariffs from manufactured goods to raw materials, promoting development.

I do believe that Britain will be prosperous post-Brexit, simply because we are opening ourselves up to a wider market. Rather than limiting ourselves to a declining trade block, we are recognising that 90% of future global growth will come from outside of the EU. Brexit is a decision based on the future, not some idealised version of the past.

Brexit is about leaving the EU, not Europe. It is in the interest of both the UK and EU to continue trading with each other. We can remain economic partners without a political union. Of course there will be economic changes over the next few years, as companies relocate and capital flow changes. However, this is nothing that the 6th wealthiest country in the world (according to the 2019 IMF GDP ranking) cannot withstand.

I am not sure if you have had any opportunity to read ‘The Left Case Against the EU’ by Costas Lapavistas. It provides a really interesting analysis of the EU that I would certainly recommend.

Why would someone vote for something that might make things better in 100 years? You have a baby and you vote for something that will make their life and everyone of that generation harder - why?

I'm sadly fairly certain it'll make my generation's life harder.

I think it'll make life better for my children when they're adults and confident that it will for their children and so on. I'm confident that in 100 years history will show that it was the right way to vote. Supra- nationalism overriding people's cultural identities trends to end very badly.

Of course a major transition is going to cause upheaval (always economically painful) before yielding benefits.

I won't forgive the politicians who did this. They mishandled the referendum so badly that half of the country would have come away feeling cheated whatever the result. I don't know how Cameron sleeps at night.

There are whole industries and thousands of small businesses who wanted to remain and are facing ruin. I have no sympathy for people like the farmer upthread who voted leave and are now asking for subsidies from taxpayers.

I agree with this. But would replace 'remainers' with 'government':

If the lovely, morally superior remainers had shared a bit of the wealth and privilege a few decades earlier this might never have happened

Leavers are the biggest bunch of misinformed twats I've ever had the misfortune to be stuck on an island with. I've not met a single one in real life who has the foggiest what they're talking about. They might not want my forgiveness, but they don't have my respect either. I can deal with opposing views, but I can't cope with wilful ignorance.

I'm sure half of them are on the wind up anyway so try to ignore them tomorrow.

simply because we are opening ourselves up to a wider market. Rather than limiting ourselves to a declining trade block

?Huh? But we were open to a wider market. We had trade deals via the EU covering more than 70 countries. EU members including us traded with countries (eg Canada) without having to pay tariffs.It will take us decades to just replace that let alone making it wider?

I can't forgive people. Especially those that continue to say 'it's done' when it's anything but. We're entering a transition period. What happens at the end of that is unknown. Unless the tories agree to a close alignment with the EU, we are looking at a No Deal.

I personally agree with the OP.

@Limitedsimba123

I find your argument about animal protections particularly concerning. Perhaps we disagree, but I find the production of foie gras incredibly inhumane. However, while the UK is in the EU, we are unable to prevent its import. I hold a similar view towards live animal exports, and hope that following Brexit, we will be able to enact significantly stricter animal welfare legislation.

Of course I recognise the importance of continued trade with our closest neighbours. However, we must recognise that, whether we support it or not, the world is becoming an increasingly globalised place. I assume that, like so many remainers, you believe that the EU has helped to maintain peace through economic cooperation. Surely, as the threat to national security is increasingly coming from outside of the EU, a similar principle must now apply to other nations.

Perhaps, as you argue, free trade deals are not a necessary precursor to cooperation. However, it is difficult to deny that a free trade deal, for example with India where the UK is one of the biggest foreign investors, would benefit both nations. I suspect that in response to this, you will raise concerns over the ethics of trading with a country in which countless workers are exploited for their labour. However, how can a country like India continue to develop without trade, seen by most economists as an incredibly significant factor in determining future growth?

Being in the EU wasn't closing ourselves off to non EU trade though.

@Figmentofmyimagination

Actually, I do find the influence of Dominic Cummings, and the more general increasing influence of special advisers, alarming, simply due to their lack of democratic accountability. Should Labour have been elected, I would no doubt have held a similar view about the influence of Seamus Milne, despite sharing several policy positions.

I voted brexit- I was 25 at the time. I regret it as I have changed my opinions quite a bit since then.

What I find incredible is how self-absorbed and entitled Remainers come across whilst accusing Brexiters of being thick, bigoted, ignorant etc.

Time after time I see posts from Remainers saying things like "my husband will have to leave his highly paid job in the EU because of Brexit" or "my kids will not be able to travel to Europe because of Brexit", so the message is that it's perfectly acceptable for Remainers to vote in favour of their own self-interest but are then apoplectic that working-class people in the north have the audacity to also vote for what they perceived as their own self-interest (not having to compete with low paid EU migrants for jobs, housing, school places, health services etc). Obviously the working class plebs should know their place and how dare they vote incorrectly!

Remainers didn't give a shit when the working class were displaced from their blue-collar jobs, they were just expected to suck it up and accused of being "racist" for having the temerity to want to be paid a decent wage and not have their communities destroyed so that some highly paid CEO in London could make a load of money from cheap, benefit-subsidized labour.

Try being a bit less angry and find out why so many people voted for Brexit. Perhaps they were not reaping the benefits that the OP so enjoyed? And don't threaten them with their lives getting worse under Brexit because many peoples lives (outside the wealthy middle-class London bubble) have been miserable for years and they have little to lose by voting for Brexit.

Grow up @mothertruck3r . Enough stereotyping.

@mothertruck3r so true!

But mothertruck3r the chances of their lives being better after Brexit are quite slim especially in the short term, which could be 50 years so not what I would call short-term. Prices are more than likely going to rise as we are possibly not going to be able to get such favourable trade deals, famers not being subsidised, so even if wages go up they are likely to be worse off.

My views were not influenced by a red bus, what I read in the papers, social media or the Russians

The fact that you think the money we pay into the EU is wasted suggests that on the contrary, you have fallen hook, line and sinker for the anti-EU propaganda.

You have taken away my EU citizenship. You have removed my rights and my identity without my consent.

I have seen no evidence of Leavers’ empathy with Remainers on this, so I don’t really think forgiveness is owed, or acceptance expected.

are then apoplectic that working-class people in the north have the audacity to also vote for what they perceived as their own self-interest

The keyword there is "perceived". Not actual. That people believe they'll be better off but have been hoodwinked is an actuality. But people are still in denial about that.

Try being a bit less angry and find out why so many people voted for Brexit.

I've have. And it's based on bullshit. Except when you try to point this out, folk get defensive and think you're calling them thick.

We live in a democracy. Get over it.

I didn't vote for Tony Blair but had to live with the consequences of those who did. I didn't spend all those years moaning about it.