To think this class-obsessed country uses DC's names to change theirs?

[GinDaddy]

I live in the South of England, I'm heading towards middle age, so this gives you some context before my OP, which is..

AIBU to think people are giving their DCs "posh" or "aspirational" names as status signifiers? (Which ironically immediately marks them out to me as such?)

I realise there's always been fashionable and unfashionable names since time immemorial. But what I'm talking about is the slew of names which I would previously only expect to hear on Made In Chelsea or Guy Pelly's guest list at Boujis.

Arabella. Annabelle. Isabelle. Amelia. Jasper. Oscar. Oliver (to be inevitably commuted immediately to Ollie in faux-braying tones). Hugo. Theo. Leo. Harry (not even bothering to use the proper Harold, just going straight to the diminutive because well, it sounds right).

It's just a bit odd really. People can and will call their child what they like, but why are so many folk (and it's always the same folk, the ones who are project managers, who love myWaitrose and head tilting, whose teeth chatter when grandparents offer DC a Kinder Surprise) enamoured with these names?

Can someone actually explain this to me? No one has ownership of names, but I cannot believe that some people aren't using this as some sort of social signifier. 15 years ago not everyone was called Ollie or Theo. I didn't know a load of Arabellas or Amelias, I knew a few but that was commensurate with the environment.

AIBU to think the popularity of these names comes from their associate social status?

@Amrapaali

I've nothing against people bettering their circumstances and achieving.

I've everything against rampant snobbery and clique-building of the kind the UK middle classes specialise in, and for which Mumsnet is often a lovely slab of cross-section.

You only have to witness the faux horror at Net"Huns" coming over to the board, and infecting it with their kiss-flecked posts and poor spelling, to know that there are plenty of folk who want to demonstrably demarcate their class and position as quickly as possible

Middle class people HATE to be seen as aspirational and will get very upset if you accuse them that calling their child
Amelia Romily Burnett-Jones is because of anything other than they wanted to double barrel surnames because it’s fairer and they just liked the given names.

If you go on the baby names threads there's an awful lot of judgement around certain names that are apparently chavvy or common. So I think class & judgement of names is a thing.

OP, you are well out of date with the names you've picked on - they were becoming popular at least 25 years ago, very popular 16-20 years ago. That's more or less a generation ago. Classic' would be my description. Today's aspirational names, if there is such a phenomenon, are more left field eg Atticus, Persephone.

@Blacksackunderthetreesfreeze

My entire point is that they are run of the mill names now, because everyone is trying to do the same thing.

Hope that helps.

Um, @Equimum has it spot on and said it better than I ever could. Exactly this.

Back in the day when I was at primary school 60's born older person here there was very definitely a divide with children's names. You could guess roughly where classmates lived depending on what their name was.

Class still exists today but it's been getting more complex and diluted over the years. So some names that were seen as solidly middle class back then are now used by all, and yes I agree, especially where I live, that a child's name is given because they want to appear middle class. Christ, the faux 'posh' accents I hear round here is unbelievable.

But that's the way it is in some areas. One of my neighbours is like this, she called her children very traditional but more of a middle class name and it's blindingly obvious she's a social climber who thinks that having vast quantities of 'stuff' delivered to her house will help. Standing by your door calling Benedict and Beatrice in your faux voice is fooling no one.

Lots of reference to Freakonomics.
It’s years since I read it, but did it really cover this? I recall a chapter about name and correlation with measure of success or otherwise in life. But nothing about what OP is taking about - choosing a name deliberately from a ‘class’ you to perceive to be higher than your own to achieve that success.

As a side note, anyone else getting really fed up with posters who don’t have a valid argument/ response trying to dismiss a point by saying “that’s nasty”. “What a nasty thread” you see it so often on here....

It’s the internet, what do they expect? And just because you think it’s ‘nasty’ doesn’t mean it isn’t a valid point? Op I really don’t think anything you’ve said has been particularly out of line.

I wouldn't consider any of the names you've listed as posh names isn't Oliver one of the most popular names in the UK now?

Try reading Freakonomics, there is a whole chapter about this subject.

If I met an Archie as a child now for example I would think that’s a bit of a common name.

Most very posh people I know use very standard names. Charlotte - George etc.

I went to a boarding school - there really were not any Gary’s and Sharon’s. And if you had that name you would have stood out.

But that would not have been the case if you’d been at boarding school 50 years ago.

Actually, I did - 1970-1978, from ages 9 to 17. Lots of Carolines & C/Katherines, then Emma, Eve, Annabel, Clara, Nicola, Penelope, Fenella, Arabella, Jane, Diana, Vivien, etc. Definitely no Sharons or any brothers called Gary.

That was in England near my maternal relations. Being Scots, most of the boys I knew who went away to school were called Iain, Douglas, Graham or various family surnames such as Forbes and Innes, except for Matthew who went to Fettes, Tony Blair's old stamping ground! 😁

I'm going to out myself massively here.. Just to prove you wrong.
My son is called Rupert, apparently a 'posh name'... I live in a council flat. Both dh and I work full time in 'professional' but not well paid jobs. We are working class at best.

Did I name him that because I wanted to up my social status? Absolutely not. Because I don't give one shit about social status.
I named him that because we love the name and it suits him down to the ground.

I think you need to reevaluate how much you care about other peoples children's names and 'status' op

My entire point is that they are run of the mill names now, because everyone is trying to do the same thing

So if they are run of the mill names then the people choosing them aren’t choosing out of their class boundary.

My point was, Sometimes it’s better to be aspirational in naming your child, whatever that means. A name matters, giving your child a standard name acceptable in most professions/ circles is better than going the stripper names route. You are setting them up to be on a level playing field in one small insignificant aspect of their life- it’s also dependant on fashions of the time.

It’s the same as having a foreign name on a CV, there are connotations and assumptions people jump to and why should people potentially disadvantage their child?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-london-38751307

I think it's hilarious when people try to deny that a. the UK has an inherent class system and b. that they are part of it and use aspirational signifiers to jump up a rank.

It is perfectly obvious that it happens all the time.

YANBU to think class is still very much a thing in this country. YANBU to think that the names people choose for their children (and the types of clothes, cars, holidays and house decor) are partly related to class association (either the class they are from or the class they are aspiring to).

But YABU to be so infuriated about it and so snarky to people who don't agree with you or fail to share your annoyance. We can't help but be a product of our upbringing. Sneering at other people based on perceptions of class is shitty (e.g. your Nethuns example). Calling your child a name which you think will help them in life is perfectly understandable.

@Ncjusthere
But you must have known that name is considered posh? Ergo the argument stands.
But anyway that is in no way a bad thing! It was done for me. And it worked. My Grandad was proper working class. And he had aspirations that his children would achieve more. Which they did.

I am not a native English speaker - what distinguishes a 'faux posh accent' from the way somebody naturally speaks?

(I better take that over to the cunning linguists.)

I disagree that people are widely choosing a name that is ‘posh’ as an signifier of status.

I think it’s more likely that the names are chosen because people aren’t thinking about class and status in the same way.

Today, do we look up to ‘posh’ people? Or just rich people? Who nowadays, due to sport and the many forms of media aren’t ‘posh’ at all.

If you called your council house born daughter Araminta in 1982, would people have whispered about ideas above your station? Maybe.

In 2020, I think they’d just say “how many Ms and does it have an accent?”. We are probably much more “your baby your way hun” than before.

If you hear a name, and like it, you use it - end of. Cressida is reserved any more. I think they’re more popular now for the opposite reason - people give less of a shit about what ‘class’ means.

No I don't.

More than thirty years ago kids were called Oliver, Oscar, Theo. They were popular names at that time and still are.

'Chavvy' names were Kelly, Jordan, Jason and the like. Before that, Darren, Samantha and Sharon were but quite honestly, who cares now they're all grown up?

This country is far less class obsessed than when I was growing up. My mother was a typical working class snob and had the most awful ideas but I don't come across that attitude very much now in younger people. Thank goodness.

Katherine/Catherine and Georgina are lovely, timeless names. I've known many and never noticed any particular class associations.

I've no idea what 'head tilting' is and go to Waitrose if I'm near one. There's one round the corner from where my son lives which I visit when I go there and he only has to roll out of bed to be in Waitrose when it opens. Waitrose is no different to Sainsbury's, Tesco or Morrisons.

I think the U.K. (at least the white U.K. born population) has a very rigid class structure and names are a part of that, like it or not.
But what is the problem with working class people giving their children ‘middle class names’? Should people be in certain jobs or at a certain level of earning before they use certain names?

It’s the same as having a foreign name on a CV, there are connotations and assumptions people jump to and why should people potentially disadvantage their child?

Why is a foreign name inherently bad? I've worked with loads of "foreigners" in big multinationals.

I’ll take Oliver or Arabella any day over the current trend of awful double-barrelled names...

Lottie-Mai, Ella-Jade, Tallulah-Rai etc...