To think this class-obsessed country uses DC's names to change theirs?

[GinDaddy]

I live in the South of England, I'm heading towards middle age, so this gives you some context before my OP, which is..

AIBU to think people are giving their DCs "posh" or "aspirational" names as status signifiers? (Which ironically immediately marks them out to me as such?)

I realise there's always been fashionable and unfashionable names since time immemorial. But what I'm talking about is the slew of names which I would previously only expect to hear on Made In Chelsea or Guy Pelly's guest list at Boujis.

Arabella. Annabelle. Isabelle. Amelia. Jasper. Oscar. Oliver (to be inevitably commuted immediately to Ollie in faux-braying tones). Hugo. Theo. Leo. Harry (not even bothering to use the proper Harold, just going straight to the diminutive because well, it sounds right).

It's just a bit odd really. People can and will call their child what they like, but why are so many folk (and it's always the same folk, the ones who are project managers, who love myWaitrose and head tilting, whose teeth chatter when grandparents offer DC a Kinder Surprise) enamoured with these names?

Can someone actually explain this to me? No one has ownership of names, but I cannot believe that some people aren't using this as some sort of social signifier. 15 years ago not everyone was called Ollie or Theo. I didn't know a load of Arabellas or Amelias, I knew a few but that was commensurate with the environment.

AIBU to think the popularity of these names comes from their associate social status?

I honestly have no idea what class my boys names are. They both come from the bible as we though they would age well... Bible has been around for 2000 years so we thought it stood the test of time. I was brought up very working class and my husband was brought up very middle class. I am no sure what we should have called them tbh. We wanted names that could be said and spelled by both side of the family (bilingual family). I have met really poor people with our sons names and met really posh people. Tbh it was not a factor.

@DisinterestedParty well if your argument is that sniping is all fair game, then why pick up on posters for biting back at the OP?

Boujis closed down some years ago now OP

What a sad reminder on a Monday morning 😢

This reminds me of a bit at the beginning of "My friend Muriel" by Jane Duncan where the narrator says that her family classified names into three groups. Those that were for people like us (working class) names that were for the gentry and names that were just "silly and outlandish and borne by a class that was somewhere between us and the gentry" she expands it by saying that people like us could use names that the gentry were not using at the moment.

@VeniceQueen2004 I think you're thinking about this on a deeper level than I am.

People pick aspirational names for their kids and aspirational clothes. That's hardly rocket science.

People come to mn, sometimes, to enjoy a good mudsling and a bit of a barney. Me too.

It's not that big a deal.

I think the trouble with OP’s thesis is that he thinks it’s in any way ground breaking and wishes to discuss it as if it is.

Stripped back, it’s a simple and well documented fact that name fashions are in part cyclical, with a cycle of around three generations - granny names are rarely fashionable but great-granny names are more likely to be.

Factors will include how widespread a name is, so after peak popularity it will swiftly wane, and perceptions of who names their children that - which is where class inevitably comes into play.

There is a question of whether this is more prevalent in the UK than in other countries that don’t have the historical baggage that OP is certainly carrying. I’m not sure whether there are statistics on this - otherwise it’s all conjecture and we all bring our biases (and some interesting gender biases here - I note based on language choices that OP reserves his contempt for the mothers of these children rather than their fathers.)

Coming from a less class-conscious country I’m not sure I’ve seen that this is a uniquely British phenomenon - name fashions and choices based on perceived ‘fit’ for one’s social circumstances, whether current or aspirational, isn’t unusual in my home country or others I’ve encountered.

GinD, I think Harry is often a shortened form of Henry not Harold in many people.

The names are not particularly posh but I think sticking to traditional names is always a good thing. i was looking at some ancestors in Peebles last week in the 1700s./ 1800s and their names were all similar to today William, Margaret etc. Just normal English names. My siblings and I have as first of our Christian names names of English kings and queens (normal ones not any weird ones) and my 5 children have old testament names and I don't mean anything strange like Hephzibah.

@GinDaddy I think you may have a point and would love to see some research on names, and their prevalence, in various occupations and the socio-economic status of the parents.

I think a lot of posters are being slightly disingenuous. England is a country with a strong class emphasis. It may be less overt than it was, but it still remains. Whether that is the same in the other UK countries, I couldn't tell you.

I think it's true that many of the names you gave in your example are chosen now by parents who would historically have been considered WC. So it isn't possible to ascertain the background of an Arabella.

HOWEVER, I doubt that names such as Lexi-Mae have crossed class boundaries in a similar way, so it is more likely that the socio-economic status of Lexi-Mae's parents can be identified.

Class snobbery does exist, in England at least, and to refute that is to refute reality. It shouldn't exist but it does. Sadly, it also exists within people in positions of power, such as those in FTSE 100 companies who recruit.

With that in mind, it is surely somewhat shortsighted to give your child a name which is strongly associated with a certain class background, if there is a chance that they will be adversely judged by it in the future? It's wrong that it should be that way, but that doesn't mean that it isn't true.

Arabella could be from a WC or MC background, and her CV isn't likely to be thrown in the bin by some snob at Coutts (for example). Lexi-Mae, however, IS more likely to have her CV thrown in the bin, by the snob, as her name DOES signify a WC background. Has anyone met many MC or UC Lexi-Maes or Kenzie-Jos?

Wow OP...you sound a teeny bit snobby!

As another PP has mentioned, what "class" do you think you fall into? Would you get away with calling your DD Arabella instead of someone from a Northern council estate because you are of "higher class"?

Is it only aspirational if wc use these names or anyone?

Op what names do you think people should go for?

some pretty wanky names out here, but you'd choose to pick on... Harry? Such an ordinary, boring name?

My kids have names from the list, although they are slightly older and were just sort of coming back into fashion when I chose them. I just wanted nice “normal” names that wouldn’t draw attention.

This idea that people are essentially getting ideas above their station by choosing names outside their social class is deeply unpleasant. Why should it matter? Should us WC perhaps wear badges and only call our kids Kayden to signify that we are absolutely not MC in any way? God forbid your child invites mine over to play, only for you to be faced with me dropping him off on my way to my distinctly non-MC job, driving a Mondeo when you were expecting something else based on his name 🙄

Also, what’s wrong with being aspirational?

@sirching

Amen to this post, and spot on about the Coutts recruitment.

Oliver was one of the most popular names in the nineties afaik

Gosh Shakespeare comes to mind a rose is a rose.... I often wonder where the Doris, Elizabeth, Margaret the truth is society is changing everyone is equal and names have changed with the times

Better than calling a child Jackdaniels which has happened

I know someone who did that. Last name was Daniels so Jack what the "obvious" choice.....

No parent with an iota of common sense wants to give a child a name that may potentially hinder their life chances.

We can pretend that names don’t matter/ we don’t assume things from names- of course people do! You may not but most people do (unfortunately). That’s why this thread is now 21 pages in. The odd thing about the examples on the first post are that they are actually genuinely popular names at the moment- I wouldn’t consider them as particularly pretentious.

My personal choice with names follow few rules:

• I have to like it and my husband.
• It could be an appropriate name for anyone in any job.
• it won’t give my child any unnecessary grief from their peers as they grow up.

I’m sorry but names do sometimes conform to negative stereotypes- who can blame anyone from outside these stereotypes for not wanting to select names that are associated with them? I know two people very well whose names are seen as either silly or ‘chavvy’ (sorry about the use of this word but let’s not pretend we don’t know what I mean and jump on it). Both of them hate their names and feel they do them a massive disservice. Who would want that for their child?

I thought Annabelle was such a pretty name..I called my cat it.
Very working class area...obviously I had ideas above my station.
I don’t remember her lording it over Harry or Sophie my other two cats..but as they were all pedigree Persians they probably all felt entitled anyway. 😂

Is Baby Annabell posh? Or does the spelling of her name (not the unusual Annabelle or Annabel) make her yoonik?

A lot of the names you listed are really common, class free names. Harry isn’t linked to any particular class at all, I couldn’t tell you what a family was like purely through that name choice. There’s literally ten Harry’s in every class, it’s so common and has been in the top ten for years. Theo definitely is not aspirational, nor is Leo or actually any of the names you listed. Hugo perhaps a little on the pretentious side but that’s it, the others are quite plain and average names.

@magicfarawaytrees I totally agree with you. I have known people who do recruitment who have binned CVs on the basis of "chavvy" names. I have challenged their snobbery, and pointed out that they are making a judgement on the applicants parents rather than a judgement on the applicant themselves. Sadly, Phoenix-Chi isn't the type of name they feel represents their traditional, old school, organisation.

It shouldn't be this way, it's wrong, but it IS the way it sometimes is. Why would anyone disadvantage their child by making their name a potential social barrier?
Very famous "creative" types also do the same. So you then have poor sods like Zowie Bowie changing their name to Duncan Jones, but those names aren't as prevalent as the Kenzies and Keeley-Shays of this world.

Wow for once someone actually agrees with me on mumsnet, I’m genuinely really happy! 😂👍🏻

So you'd be happier if the lower classes all named their kids Tyler and Chardonnay to firmly mark their rightful place in the British society ?

and I agree with both @SirChing and @magicfarawaytrees , so that makes three of us haha!