To think we need more grammars

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I went to a grammar school that was and still is massively oversubscribed. I feel like given how popular it is there should be more like it because I’m sure many bright children are turned down. I believe the school has great results not necessarily because of great teaching but because pretty much everyone who attends has a strong work ethic (less disruption, parental support, competitive spirit amongst peers). For part of my education I also attended a non selective school and I found it tough because it was very uncool to work hard. If you didn’t want to be a loser who got bullied you had to be disruptive, skiving, smoking weed in lunch breaks rather than attending clubs.
I struggle to understand why there’s so much anti grammar school feeling and reluctance to develop more of these schools. Surely it gives children from working/middle class backgrounds who want to work hard the opportunity to be in an environment where they can do so without being bullied for it? Would be interested to hear thoughts on this

No no no. Look at northern ireland two tier education system. Lovely funded grammars. Massively underfunded high schools for those who dont pass transfer test

I am going to be honest my daughter goes to a grammar, I felt it was the best option for her, however I think grammars add to the problem of poor schools and because so many pupils are tutored for the 11+ they don't offer equal opportunity to bright pupils. They offer an opportunity for pupils who are capable and have invested parents. If all pupils, regardless of background, sat the 11+, then they would truly break class boundaries. However disadvantaged pupils are not helped by the current grammar system.

We definitely need more secondary moderns.

The problem is that, in reality, they are back-door private schools because of the amount of money many parents are prepared to pump in to get a place. Paying more for a house in the area, paying for prep school, paying for years of tutoring.

I also think 10 is too young to decide who needs a 'different' learning environment. I could buy into it more if it were 13+.

Interesting. For those who are against would be interested to know what you think about the situation I described where a pupil who wants to work hard ends up in an environment where working hard leads to being bullied and excluded socially. I made it through those years but it was pretty unpleasant and had a much happier time at the grammar school

In my mind if you didn't have grammars you would have more of a mix of kids in comprehensives. If you look at areas which don't have grammars the comprehensives are more mixed ability

I think a better solution would be to redesign education so that all pupils can find their place within it, and feel valued and successful in a way that prevents the disaffected attitude you describe.

In my experience, all children want to learn, even those who find it the most difficult. But if you repeatedly indicate to them that they are not very good at it- as the current system does- they will tell you to fuck off in the end.

Absolutely not. Areas without Grammar schools often have much better secondary schools. So all children get a better chance at a good education. Not just those tutored for the 11+. Look at Hampshire as an example no Grammar schools at all Winchester has 3 high performing secondary schools ( non selective) and a 6th form with extremely high Oxbridge numbers each year. Every child is pushed to do well and every child has a chance to be a late developer.
Seriously the 11+ and the tutoring that goes on just benefits the well off and never helps the child from the poorest families.

The problem is, OP, not all hard working children go to grammars and not all grammar schools are filled with hard working, studious children.

Please do not take your experience and apply it to every pupil and every school.

We do not need more grammars, we need properly funded state education.

I went to a Grammar school and my DCs go to a comprehensive, many of my close friends DCs go to private.

I honestly think my DCs are having a more rounded education than my friends. Mine are learning there are so many differences, who the local drug dealers are and I believe they will be best placed to deal with life. Although to be fair the amount of underage sex and drugs at one of the private schools is mind blowing.

I do keep on at them to remain in the top sets and intervene as necessary but then I've always felt education isn't just grades and teachers, parents play a huge role too. I've taught mine to deal with any bullying and the better grades you get the more choices you have in life. They want to do well and be the best they can be. They are both in the top sets and my eldest has just got 7s in his mocks, he's learnt to deal with any bullies and his whole friend set support each other so bullies don't really affect them.

The Grammar I went to was far too grade focussed hence my children to go the local comp who have excellent pastoral care and the head teachers knows all the kids.

but because pretty much everyone who attends has a strong work ethic (less disruption

I think you are looking through very rose tinted glasses.

No. What we need to do is to properly fund normal comps so that the children from deprived areas have a real chance to break the cycle of deprivation through education.

I teach maths, but I can tell you the overall education system needs re designing. A lot of what we teach is irrelevant, outdated. This breeds a lack of interest for pupils, particular deprived areas - if you’re a teenager, looking after your little sister because your parents aren’t, coming to school tired, scared, hungry. You don’t want, or need algebra. You need care, food and opportunities that you can focus on and link with.

In areas with lots of grammar schools, the 5% of kids that attend a grammar do better but the 95% that don't, do worse (compared to those attending comprehensives in areas with no grammar schools). Seems a no brainier to me. But I would abolish private schools as well

The bright student from a working class background who wants to work hard may easily miss the cut, even with more places available. Then they are left to go to the secondary modern with even fewer children who actually want to be there.

My DS goes to a super selective state grammar. He is very bright, from a working class, single parent family and waltzed in untutored. However, many of his peers have parents who are middle class professionals and many were tutored to get in. It's not an even playing field.

More money needs to be put into all schools of all types to make sure every child gets the best education possible. I’m not against grammar schools but I am against throwing more money at them while letting children who are at regular schools go without- which they already are.

The issues are, it is seen as privilege even if what really happens in some comprehensives is bright kids get bullied for wanting to work hard.
Also, if you put all the academically strong kids in a separate school, in class, their joint calming and proactive influence on any disruptive kids is removed.

Thirdly, kids who fail the 11 + are made to feel like they’ve failed at 11 which is horrible. When what is really needed is good quality non-academic education. Senior schools should be offering GCSEs in Electronics, nutrition, mech. engineering etc instead.

What I’d rather see is SMALLER schools where teachers can spot those who are struggling or causing trouble, and have the time and resource to support them.

But that costs lots of money.

Also by having a Grammar school and a secondary modern in the same town you are effectively telling the 11 year old children they are not as good. This becomes a self fulfilling prophecy really. Children (all children) need encouragement and confidence boosts. So yes guess what a secondary in a Grammar area where every child has basically been told they are not as good will have poorer behavior what do you expect if you tell children they are not clever.
A school with a full range of ability will have more motivation for the weaker children . Work hard and you go up a set.
From my experience those doing well and working hard are not the ones being bullied.

Do you also want more secondary moderns?

If your child wasn’t ‘deemed suitable for a grammar education’, would you be happy for them to attend a secondary modern (or a high school, in the parlance of my county)?

My son attends a grammar and I have been nothing but disappointed with it. Behaviour is poor, much of the teaching is mediocre and most of the time pastoral care has been non existent. They also seem to have a long term drug issue in school too. Ds has been picked on since he started there (he has SEN). He now has lost interest in academics as he has been picked on for that too.

I deeply regret sending him there. His brother attended our local secondary modern and did exceptionally well. We are trying to persuade Ds to move there for sixth form but he really struggles with change.

I'm sure there are some great grammar schools out there but there are also some pretty awful ones too. Ds's school has an outstanding rating from 2011. Ofsted don't seem interested in doing another visit.

I went to a grammar and the bullying that went on in one of the form groups in my year was horrific, but as the girls were clever and canny they got away with it and most of it came to light when we all left. (I dread to think what they would have been like now in the social media era.) Bullying is not exclusively to comprehensives. (Yes my friends and I did stand up to them when we witnessed a horrible incident, we reported it and the school took it very seriously and the ringleaders were put on a final warning that one more report and they would be permanently excluded, but they continued just made sure it wasn’t near anyone who would stand up to them - we found that out when we left and they confessed.)

What we really need is proper funding of our education system, addressing the teacher retention issue, value experience over enthusiasm and making sure that that similar opportunities are on offer everywhere. Proper funding for SEN and also more resources for pupils struggling with emotional and behavioural needs. (And that includes funding CAMHS and social services properly.)

YABU. What about those left over at 11 and left to attend a secondary modern with none of the top achieving students or. teachers. Grammars are all very well for the minority that get in but they screw up the system for the majority that don't.

I wouldn’t mind there being more grammar schools, I think all children should be able to access the type of school that they are best suited to. If there wasn't so much competition for such a tiny number of places, there wouldn’t be such a big need for tutoring. As it is in my area, there are plenty of pupils who pass the 11+ but don’t get a place because there aren’t enough of them.

In my experience, the grammar schools are given much less government funding than the other schools simply because they have far fewer pupils on PP, which makes a massive difference to how much schools have to spend. It shouldn’t be up to parents to pay for basic things that schools need, but that is what happens in both primary and secondary schools that don’t have enough PP children.

I understand the points that are being made but aren’t they ignoring the fact that some children simply don’t want to work hard and never will no matter how much teachers try to encourage them? I think the teachers at my non selective school did try very hard to motivate students but ultimately it’s their choice and they weren’t interested. Disruption does have a detrimental impact on students who want to work hard. As well as the bullying issue so much lesson time was spent on behaviour management. There was no streaming in this school. Some people have mentioned that above. Maybe that would be the solution but again it involves separating pupils which is what seems to be objectionable to most people.

I went to a grammar school and taught in grammar schools. I have not got a good word to say about them.