To think we need more grammars

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I went to a grammar school that was and still is massively oversubscribed. I feel like given how popular it is there should be more like it because I’m sure many bright children are turned down. I believe the school has great results not necessarily because of great teaching but because pretty much everyone who attends has a strong work ethic (less disruption, parental support, competitive spirit amongst peers). For part of my education I also attended a non selective school and I found it tough because it was very uncool to work hard. If you didn’t want to be a loser who got bullied you had to be disruptive, skiving, smoking weed in lunch breaks rather than attending clubs.
I struggle to understand why there’s so much anti grammar school feeling and reluctance to develop more of these schools. Surely it gives children from working/middle class backgrounds who want to work hard the opportunity to be in an environment where they can do so without being bullied for it? Would be interested to hear thoughts on this

I work in schools. I think able pupils are massively failed by the state system. More grammar schools would help, or at least better streaming of secondary pupils in terms of ability.

@fedup21, I would hope that the teachers at the Comp would greatly appreciate the respect that DS2's school expect boys to (quite rightly) show to their teachers and the fact that the SLT clearly support their staff in upholding discipline standards.
They are told to be proud of their school and to respect others, teachers and pupils.
At the Comp, DS1 comes home with awful stories of repeated poor behaviour and its not properly addressed.
My point was, why have rules on uniform/behavior, etc if you don't enforce them?
This school just got a Good Ofsted rating BTW ...

@Foxyloxy1plus1 Interesting. Most of the girls that were disruptive in my class were much more interested in creative rather than academic subjects. I seem to remember that they really enjoyed art lessons and many have ended up in jobs like hairdressing and beauty so perhaps for them a focus on what they actually
enjoyed would have probably been better so they were less disruptive

I’m all for grammars.

While private schools exist they give the poor but bright a fighting chance.

I didn’t go to one (no 11+ in my area) but wish I had.

The grammar is much tougher on uniform, behaviour and minor indiscretions (forgotten pens/books, etc) and my view is that if the comp followed this line, it would improve standards

I guess you live nowhere near an Outwood academy then.

While private schools exist they give the poor but bright a fighting chance.

They really don't. They are full of pupils who's parents are pleased that they can save £££ on private fees.

I am going to be honest my daughter goes to a grammar, I felt it was the best option for her, however I think grammars add to the problem of poor schools and because so many pupils are tutored for the 11+ they don't offer equal opportunity to bright pupils.

Smiling at the hypocrisy of sending your child to a grammar whilst saying they're a bad idea.

So it's just OK for other people's kids to not get a chance at a good education is it, even though a grammar might be "the best option" for them too.

Some people are are astonishingly unself-aware.

My colleague's daughter is at grammar school.

She is being bullied because she is considered stupid. She "only" got an 8 in maths GCSE and everyone else in her maths A Level group got a 9.

I don't think such a high pressurised environment is good for our young people.
And I think the focus should be on improving schools in general, not just those who are likely to pass the 11+ who tend to be from the sort of families where they will do well anywhere.

Anavrin you do realise that not all grammars are just like your son's and that not all non selective schools are like your other son's?

There are some very strict non selective schools, there are very successful non selective schools and some grammars don't do that well considering their intake. As I mentioned above the behaviour at my grandson's grammar is appalling in my opinion, they do nothing to support children with any issues just let things run until they don't want to deal anymore and then suggest to parents that they look for another school.

I’m in a grammar area. They are purely for the wealthy, the clever poor kids do not stand a chance.
You’ve kids being tutored from infants, 2 /3 hours a day with private tutors. You’ve prep schools getting them 11+ ready whilst state schools cannot prepare them. How is that fair?
The 11+ contains things that are not taught in state schools, questions and timings children simply will not have come across (or come across again unless they are training to be doctors).

If you could tutor proof the test id agree, but where the tutored children push the pass rate to unattainable for the clever poor children, it is simply not fit for purpose.

But you are comparing grammar with the "secondary modern".
We have lived in non selective with good schools. Good behaviour encouraged, bad punished. None of them Perfect but decent.

Babychanger it depends where you live. I would have liked me kids to go to a comprehensive, it wasn't possible where we live, it was a grammar or a secondary mod, yes they can call the non selective school a comp or a high school or whatever but if you have creamed off 20% of kids what is left is a secondary mod. I couldn't magic a real comprehensive out of thin air.

I think all children should be able to access the type of school that they are best suited to.

What overwhelmingly happens is that kids of the well off find that a grammar is the school best suited for them, and disadvantaged kids find it’s the secondary modern.

The 11+ seems to effectively filter on parental income.

"Surely it gives children from working/middle class backgrounds who want to work hard the opportunity to be in an environment where they can do so without being bullied for it?"

So what happens to the not so able children who want to work hard?

A meritocracy for kids whose parents can afford many hours of private tuition, expensive uniforms and additional travel costs. That's how it works in the city I left to avoid the grammar system, anyway.

Bonfire my very able son who has SEN has been massively failed by his grammar school.

For those who are against would be interested to know what you think about the situation I described where a pupil who wants to work hard ends up in an environment where working hard leads to being bullied and excluded socially.
But what about the children who work hard but are not able to pass the grammar entrance tests?

OP you mention grammars near you and comprehensives; if you have grammars then the other schools are not comprehensive.

OP Did I read right that you went to a private non selective with 11 pupils? Vastly different to my comp of an intake of 180. Yes I got called a swot at times, but on the whole pupils did just get on with the work.

@1forsorrow of course I do! But that equally works vice versa...

My point would be that scrapping grammars would not improve standards in non grammars.
It's a marmite thing, people love them or hate them.
Having DC at both means I have a very direct comparison and, IN OUR EXPERIENCE, the grammar is by far the better school. Your experience is clearly different.
All I would say is that very able DS2 is doing very well at his grammar and I genuinely do not think he would have been pushed and encouraged in the same way at comp based on DS1's experience if for no other reason than the amount of time his teachers are forced to waste on disruptive, rude pupils.

So what happens to the not so able children who want to work hard? Exactly. The 11 plus does not test work ethic, it tests a combination of natural ability and how well the child is prepared for the test. That may be due to the child's own work ethic, quality of primary education, home environment, the ability of parents to pay for tutoring or tutor the child themselves, and so on.

My very bright, working class, child in grammar school does not want to work hard, he'd prefer to do the bare minimum. Being surrounded by middle class children in an environment where expectations are high, has been excellent for him, but he's not there because he wants to work hard.

One of the interesting thing about the 11 plus is the man who designed the tests for it, and provided the scientific backing for it, faked his data. Then faked the peer review both of his peer reviewers were female colleagues who "moved to New Zealand" and were unable to be traced.

Yabu, I live in a grammar area and both DC are likely to pass 11+ so no bitterness but having seen how much tutoring goes on and even without tutoring how much of an advantage kids with educated parents have and how awful the secondary moderns are it's clearly a massively unfair system.

No no no. Look at northern ireland two tier education system. Lovely funded grammars. Massively underfunded high schools for those who dont pass transfer test

Students in NI obtain better results than their counterparts in England and Wales most years though. There are many excellent secondary schools too - and the most oversubscribed school in Belfast is an integrated one rather than grammar!

Are you certain about the difference in funding? Methodist College Belfast is surely one of the top grammars in Belfast yet many of the facilities and buildings are old and crumbling.

The bucks test was an utter shambles this year. It had questions without answers. No school / centre was administered it the same way. Some had children notice, others didn’t, some paused the time whilst they found out what was going on, but let the kids talk or carry on during that time. Afternoon centres knew so told the kids to skip it so the kids effectively had extra time.

The difference in funding as backed by data from the London challenge.

Anavrin i have had Dc at both grammar and secondary modern so also have very direct experience. The secondary modern was by far the better school. So much so that fingers crossed Ds will get a place at their sixth form so that he can move from his supposedly 'outstanding grammar'.