To think we need more grammars

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I went to a grammar school that was and still is massively oversubscribed. I feel like given how popular it is there should be more like it because I’m sure many bright children are turned down. I believe the school has great results not necessarily because of great teaching but because pretty much everyone who attends has a strong work ethic (less disruption, parental support, competitive spirit amongst peers). For part of my education I also attended a non selective school and I found it tough because it was very uncool to work hard. If you didn’t want to be a loser who got bullied you had to be disruptive, skiving, smoking weed in lunch breaks rather than attending clubs.
I struggle to understand why there’s so much anti grammar school feeling and reluctance to develop more of these schools. Surely it gives children from working/middle class backgrounds who want to work hard the opportunity to be in an environment where they can do so without being bullied for it? Would be interested to hear thoughts on this

Sp11111ng My autistic child has been bullied and picked on all the way through grammar. He has had his bag thrown out of a top floor window breaking his headphones, his clothes scribbled on, food thrown at him, hit in the head with a chair in science and persistent name calling, weirdo, cripple etc.

I wish he had never taken the 11+. He passed without any formal tutoring but now in year 11, he hates school, hates anything academic and has terribly low self esteem. I deeply regret sending him to grammar school.

The big issue with grammar schools is those who fail the 11+. Ask anyone who failed the 11+ back in the 1960s when grammars and secondary moderns were the norm, they never ever forget that sense of failure. It was so damaging to self esteem and confidence.

Why don't I believe there should be any more grammars?

I don't believe there is no bullying in grammar schools
I am not convinced that work ethic and ability to get into a grammar are linked that strongly. I can see a divide between those preparing for a test and passing it v those that don't. But as its meant to be a test of ability not effort why have you assumed that those without the ability don't have a really good work ethic. My son couldn't try any harder in English - he isn't high ability in that specific subject.

I think its socially divisive and reflects paid for tutoring and the evidence from grammar areas supports that
I think its far too young to be sent down a path.
I think that its really arrogant to think that academically able people can only learn from and with other academically able people. Valuable ideas come from all ability levels - particularly is subjects involving debate. For those subjects that are more sequential or build on understanding one thing before progressing you can use setting and differentiating.
I don't think a grammar system caters for children with uneven attainment - perhaps really strong in maths but not English.

I appreciate my view is influenced by living in a fully comprehensive area where there standards are generally very high.

Of course there’s bullying in grammars. I’ve friends children who are bullied in grammar, and some of it quite severe. I’m not sure how effectual the school is at dealing with it. But that could be the same of any school regardless of selection.

There’s dick heads in every walk of life.

#Soffy

I was talking about this with my DSis at the weekend. She teaches a subject which doesn't tend to be setted. In her school they have taken the opposite approach as one or two disruptive kids can ruin things for the rest of the class. One teacher in her dept has all the disruptive kids in one class per year group. He's very strong on discipline and I think is ex services. They're not necessarily low ability but choose to mess about. They don't necessarily learn much but the achievement has been much higher for the other classes.

No. I want to see more funding for state schools and opportunities for ALL children, not just ones who are academically bright.

Yabu. I went to a secondary modern and my dc go to a comprehensive. Grammar schools are probably good for the children who get to go there but the majority of children in a grammar school area will go to a secondary modern school.

Whiterose brilliant solution. Would have helped my quiet studious DD, who was always sat next to disruptive kids in a v mixed ability comp. I likened it to a Dame School sometimes! She came out the other end though, and has recently been asked by her top ranking uni to apply for a PhD!

Of course there is bullying in grammar schools. My dd has been added to the enormous WhatsApp group of the local grammar, because some of of her friends go there. The revolting behaviour demonstrated in that group shows that they are no better behaved than any other child. 🤷 If you want to send your child to grammar because you want to avoid that, then that's a mistake.

In my area, only the most middle class kids of each year group go to the grammar schools because those are the ones whose parents can afford to tutor them for two years for the 11 plus exam. No poor kids get in, even if naturally able, because no one is tutoring them on how to pass the exam and they are hugely oversubscribed

@ittakes2 explained my point much better than I did!

It’s knowing about the system, how it works, what books to buy, what tutor to use.
That’s out of the reach for a lot of families.

Where I used to live many kids got into the grammar by living with extended family and then moved back to their parents’ house once they had secured a place. There are so many flaws in the system.

Bullying happens in every school!

I went to a London comprehensive in the 80s and was bullied because I wanted towork hard. The school was dire.

We live in Kent, so an 11+ area. In essence I don't believe in the grammar system because, as many posters have said, it can exclude children from lower income families due to the price of tutoring.

That said, out of my 3 children 2 passed the 11+ and are currently at grammar. The one who didn't pass is now at a Russell Group university doing extremely well.

My grammar area takes them out of catchment. So you have kids getting the train from miles away to go to school (as well as sitting the exam from miles away).

Bacon bullying does happen in every school but it's how it's dealt with that is the issue. Many grammar schools have very poor pastoral support. When I complained about Ds being called a 'cripple' the child was told off but then made life even worse for Ds.

In Ds's school there is a culture of bullying and violence and the school seem to accept it. A teacher made a really unpleasant comment to Ds yesterday, even if I complain they probably won't deal with it.

Punxsutawney yes, you're totally right re how the schools deal with it.

I'm so sorry to hear about your son's experiences. Our DS2 went through a bad time in Year 7 and it was awful.

DD (currently in Year 7) is still finding the transition from primary difficult. When she's been upset at school, the staff have been brilliant.

Pun personally I think schools need more outside pressure to make sure school is inclusive for all. It's not good enough that some places stamp out bullying and act swiftly but others are weak lettuce.

They need to be scrapped and a better overall education is needed.

I live in an area that is 100% Comprehensives. Yes there are children at each school who are disinterested in education for various reasons. But the hard working children are not likely to be in the same classes. And with ig enough schools, the schools can offer options which interest even the disinterested.

E.G my DC's school now has its own hairdressing and beauty salon.

It also gives the chance for late developers, and those from less academically advantaged backgrounds more chance to show their ability and have their talents nurtured.
The most academic go to Oxbridge or Medical school, lots more go to a variety of Universities and Apprenticeships, and those who struggle still can be directed to good practical college courses or job opportunities.

Pastoral care at our grammar is woeful. They’re just not equipped to deal with issues or interested. It’s all a gloss that covers a reality of mediocrity. They get away with it because they know plenty of parents want their dc there.

Absolutely not !!! Until the 11+ (or equivalent) is changed to a complete secret that middle class parents cannot 'coach' for. I had a really bright child in my class from a VERY poor family who missed out by ONE point ..

She had no coaching , very little family back up..but kids several points below her got places because they had had 3 years of coaching to answer questions that we went allowed to help her with.

It's wrong wrong wrong . I hate it

Five the Sutton trust (charity for social mobility) has long said grammar needs to dp more outreach work in primary schools and primary schools needs to do more to help support pupils exactly like the one you have described.

Popsicle, pastoral care is patchy across the board.

Pastoral care at our high achieving Catholic (caring) school is utterly shameful.

@Sallysaved
And @fivetillmidnight
But are the grammars bothered?
My local ones seem quite happy with their more affluent attending pupils, they have no issue giving 2 days notice to ask for £150 for a trip or £20 for something in the school.

Yes all this benefits the child, but if you haven’t the money or you struggle to find the money. That’s hard.

The state primary’s just aren’t allowed to prepare the pupils in any way, which again keeps the poorer in their place. Meanwhile private schools can do what they like.

I really feel like in my area in the last 5 years it’s grammar has got more and more unattainable for the normal state pupil. My dcs primary is top ten academically in the county (we are one of the, if not the poorest villages in the county), yet 3 passed the 11+ (4 last year, 3 the year before) It should be nearer 15 if the statistics are correct.