Is Veganism the answer?

[ScreamingLadySutch]

"Something has gone far wrong with the public conversation of food when jackfruit, an unconvincing substitute for meat that’s usually imported in tins from Thailand, or a genetically modified fake meat burger dreamed up by Silicon Valley technologists, is promoted as a more ethical choice than a lamb chop from a British hillside. ...

Another obvious reality about the plant-based plan is that most people who adopt it will end up eating more ultra-processed food. But the ingredient list on vegan fake meat, dairy and egg products make my hair stand on end. Most of them are essentially a composition of heavily processed protein flours and water bonded with glues and additives, such as flavourings, colourings, and emulsifiers. It’s obvious to me that it’s the ultra-processed food we’ve started eating in the last 60 years that is driving the modern epidemic of ill health and obesity, not traditional foods, such as meat, in their unprocessed forms. ...

Now, compare that with a vegan diet. Unless you take a supplement, or eat an awful lot of vegan processed foods with added synthetic vitamins, you won’t get enough vitamin B12, because, as Harvard Medical School explains: ’There are no known plant foods that are natural sources of B12’. Now for me, any diet that leaves you deficient in vital micronutrients is a non-starter."

www.farmison.com/community/blog/is-veganism-the-answer?utm_source=bronto&utm_medium=email&utm_term=READ+THE+ARTICLE&utm_content=Is+Veganism+The+Answer%3F+&utm_campaign=Why+Im+Not+Vegan&_bta_tid=23158906975476411550546482495056850541988262783751454339744423781623388654208692152100918018968150340360&_bta_c=f65tjgrplj0dtsf1kinp07pwkgfn3&fbclid=IwAR3K2apnRb8ohZR5lrqPWGRBKMo4TGwiUoVfjf6m2zxiORRwKojgrohaSZ0

Oops, don't know what happened with that link, but a very thoughtful article defending traditional (not factory) farming.

Veganism is not the answer to anything. I agree OP. And I have vegan friends that I love dearly and I actually used to be one, thirty years ago, looooooong before anyone else. I got ill. Now I eat some fish, some chicken, happy to cram in lentils etc. Mixed diet with some animal protein lots of natural food, shed loads of broccolli etc. I'm well now. I love this planet, too, but veganism is NOT the answer to anything really.

This assumes anyone going vegan (or vegetarian) will build their diet around meat substitutes. I’ve been vegetarian for 34 years and have barely eaten Quorn, soya etc. in that time. I have a varied, enjoyable diet and take a very effective B12 supplement.

Depends what the question is, surely?

I don't think veganism is always a greener or more ethical choice than eating meat. It can be, but it depends on individual choices.

If you go vegan or just want to try it, the best advice I can give is don't try to eat your existing diet by just substituting your meat for plant based alternatives. It will be far more expensive and you won't get the benefits. Instead, look to creating meals that replace meat with alternative proteins or filling foods, or doesn't require a meaty type element at all. Things like lentil ragu, potato and chickpea masala etc.

It’s obvious to me that it’s the ultra-processed food we’ve started eating in the last 60 years that is driving the modern epidemic of ill health and obesity, not traditional foods, such as meat, in their unprocessed forms

I'm not sure quite how that is obvious to you? The scientific consensus is that the increasing rates of obesity are down to people doing less exercise than they used to, and eating too many calorie-dense foods, which include meat and dairy. There's some (sketchy) suggestions that processed meat (eg bacon) is particularly bad, but nothing to suggest that newly manufactured meat-substitutes or tinned vegetables (eg jackfruit) are the main cause . And epidemic of ill-health??

I think the issue is that a lamb chop is undoubtedly a natural food for us to eat, and more traditional in the UK than jackfruit. But that doesn't mean it's healthy, especially if eaten regularly to fuel a inactive lifestyle. Sugar from sugar beat is both natural and local. But natural does not equal healthy.

Most people are vegan because they don’t want animals to be killed or harmed just so they can eat them.

It’s not rocket science.

If you don’t want to be vegan, then don’t.

People absolutely can be vegan without eating processed/imported food and be healthy. Look at Fiona Oakes for example. She’s been vegan since she was 6 and is a world record holder runner.

I love this planet, too, but veganism is NOT the answer to anything really.

It’s the answer to “What diet doesn’t involve having animals killed?”

@HeckyPeck that rather depends on your purchasing options and your definition of animal, and whether you mean directly or indirectly killed.

The use of pesticides and so forth mean millions (probably more) of invertebrates, and the birds and small mammals which eat those invertebrates, are killed in the production of fruit, vegetables, and grains all over the planet.

Cereal might not contain any meat but that doesn't mean no animals died in the process of growing it.

There are no known plant foods that are natural sources of B12’

Well there are fungi sources. Marmite being one. Perhaps they don't have that at Harvard.

Oops, don't know what happened with that link, but a very thoughtful article defending traditional (not factory) farming.

Well yes but its from a commercial butchery company. Hardly going to advocate for veganism any more than I'd expect to see PETA advocate the joys of steak.

Most people are vegan because they don’t want animals to be killed or harmed just so they can eat them.

But shooting deer and rabbits so that they don't eat your crops and leaving them to rot instead of eating them is far more ethical?

I imagine most people go vegan primarily to save animals rather than for environmental reasons. Think about things like vegan leather (aka plastic) and all the nut milks that are flown in from across the world, some vegan choices are shocking environmentally speaking.

However that's not to say that eating meat is better, I think we can all make smarter more ethical decisions when it comes to our lifestyles. Eat local, refuse and reuse and all that jazz.

Reduce not refuse

Everything is so all or nothing.

Veganism is for people committed to omitting animal products. Surely the rest of us should just cut down on meat and dairy and accept higher prices for those items which are farmer in a better way. Better for the environment, better for animals, better for the farmers.

But instead we seem to be pitched into a media war or farmers vs vegans.

Out of interest, if the world went vegan what would happen to the livestock? Suddenly they have no value, only costs and quite a few species appear to have been heavily altered over time to rely on human intervention e.g. dairy cows.

Also, what role does animal fertiliser play in arable farming?

YABU to expect that all vegans eat a load of processed food. Most don't base their diet around processed crap at all. And with B12 a lot of meat eaters don't get enough of it either and should take supplements too.

We are trying to eat more veggie meals at the moment and the only processed items I have bought in our shop were a veggie roast and garlic bread. Unless of course we also count in cheese, chopped tomatos, tinned lentils, tinned beans etc. that we bought on top of the fresh veg.

I think that the people who will eat mostly processed food will eat it regardless of whether they are vegan or meat eaters.

Cereal might not contain any meat but that doesn't mean no animals died in the process of growing it.

Far more cereal is grown to be animal feed than would be needed if it was going to be consumed directly by humans.

what would happen to the livestock?
It would be reduced gradually, as the whole world would not go vegan overnight.
Ofc, I don't believe the whole world would go vegan at all. There would continue to be a market for meat, just less of it.

I am not a vegan, but I eat a lot of 'vegan' foods (aka FOOD). I don't have dairy at all. No red meat. Just chicken and fish. And (local) eggs.

I don't feel bad about having a chicken breast once or twice a week because the little meat I eat is ethically sourced. I live by the sea so I can buy fish direct from the fishermen in the harbour - they always have shrimps, crabs, white fish and often lobster. My eggs come from a friend with hens.

My kids consume dairy products, but I don't for mainly digestive reasons.

I can't see how buying a fresh crab from a fisherman is worse than buying a tin of imported jackfruit, but I guess it was once alive which is the crux of the vegan diet manifesto.

I don't think a lot of vegans fully appreciate the environmental impact of some of the things they eat. Appreciate that some absolutely do, but a lot don't. One vegan I follow on Instagram for example raves about Oreos constantly, which contain palm oil.

I think I eat with an environmental conscience, not a vegan one. I'm not sure either way is 'better' tbh.

The route we are taking (and many of our friends too) is one of eating more vegan food. More than we did last year, last year more than we did before. A gradual move away from the heavily animal-based diet that frankly wasn't a thing for most people in the past, anyway.

Even my grandparents' generation had smaller chunks of meat than people do today and they certainly had vegetarian days even if they weren't called that.

Processed food has nothing to do with whether you eat vegan or not. If I didn't eat lots of processed food when my diet was primarily meat-based, then there is no need to eat lots of processed food now: I already know how to cook.

Have also noticed with a good deal of pleasure that my work canteen has got a chef who is very happy to provide good nutritious vegetarian and vegan food at a reasonable cost. It's delicious and more and more people are choosing it. It's not a case of forcing a diet on anyone, but of providing more alternatives.

Vegetarian and vegan cookery books in the shops are so much better and so much more varied (and so much less preachy) than they were a couple of decades ago. I just bought dh 2 for his birthday: lovely filling recipes, and many of them quite easy to cook.

Our aim is to move gradually from 2 to maybe 4/5 vegetarian/vegan days a week. I don't see myself ever eating tofu- can't stand the stuff- but I do look forward to discovering a lot of good food.

It's not a choice between "just stay as we are but with more people from other continents gradually catching up with us in the meat-eating stakes" or "nobody in the world ever have a piece of meat again and let's kill all the livestock". The livestock would be perfectly fine if we just ate a bit less of it. And so, probably, would we.

The answer is eating plenty of whole foods, locally and responsibly sourced, in season. People need to really think about what they are buying and who they are supporting. The power lies with the consumer.

Ideally we would all live on homesteads and produce our food (veg as well as meat and dairy, whatever we choose) but life doesn't work that way. So for the many millions of people who don't produce their own food, we need to be voting with our feet.

The entire food industry needs a shake down. Veganism is one way of doing it, but as your OP states, it doesn't guarantee that you will be making better choices. Veganism can be just as unhealthy and bad for planet as any other diet.

Of course it isn't. If 25% of emissions come from "food" and 58% of that comes from "meat" then we need to look at the other 75% from non-food, and also the 42% from non-meat. When looked at in percentage terms, eating meat isn't that bad!

Vegan food isn't necessarily better for the planet (or workers' rights) - eg I would say that eating eggs from a farm down the road is better than fruit or veg from across the world.

It's also not necessarily better for you. The Times has an article today which surveys some foods and their vegan alternatives, and the vegan alternative doesn't come out well in quite a few cases. Vegan pizza isn't better for you than non-vegan pizza, they are both rubbish. Chicken nuggets are rubbish, but less rubbish than quorn nuggets. There were examples where the vegan option was better but it made the point that they are often high in salt, sugar and fat - just like any other processed food I guess.

I saw an ad for a 'vegan' jumper. It was all synthetic. Must be bad for the environment. A sheep doesn't even die to give its wool for a jumper.

Plus there are great tracts of land in Scotland where sheep thrive, which would be no good for growing avocados, mangos, or even turnips.

We need a sensible approach.