Is Veganism the answer?

[ScreamingLadySutch]

"Something has gone far wrong with the public conversation of food when jackfruit, an unconvincing substitute for meat that’s usually imported in tins from Thailand, or a genetically modified fake meat burger dreamed up by Silicon Valley technologists, is promoted as a more ethical choice than a lamb chop from a British hillside. ...

Another obvious reality about the plant-based plan is that most people who adopt it will end up eating more ultra-processed food. But the ingredient list on vegan fake meat, dairy and egg products make my hair stand on end. Most of them are essentially a composition of heavily processed protein flours and water bonded with glues and additives, such as flavourings, colourings, and emulsifiers. It’s obvious to me that it’s the ultra-processed food we’ve started eating in the last 60 years that is driving the modern epidemic of ill health and obesity, not traditional foods, such as meat, in their unprocessed forms. ...

Now, compare that with a vegan diet. Unless you take a supplement, or eat an awful lot of vegan processed foods with added synthetic vitamins, you won’t get enough vitamin B12, because, as Harvard Medical School explains: ’There are no known plant foods that are natural sources of B12’. Now for me, any diet that leaves you deficient in vital micronutrients is a non-starter."

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Veganism is not the answer to anything

This. If you want to be vegan- go for it! But its a privileged diet that many people cannot afford. To be a "healthy" vegan, you need access to lots of produce and a variety of food stuffs to compensate for the lack of animal products. People in poverty cannot afford that and simply dont have access to that kind of variety or the education to do it safely.

Personally, I cannot eat a vegan diet. It doesnt agree with my body and I get ill. So it isn't the "answer" for me. I respect everyone's food choices and I expect the same respect in return. Be vegan if you want but dont pretend its some panacea for the ills of the world because it isn't.

It's also not necessarily better for you. The Times has an article today which surveys some foods and their vegan alternatives, and the vegan alternative doesn't come out well in quite a few cases. Vegan pizza isn't better for you than non-vegan pizza, they are both rubbish. Chicken nuggets are rubbish, but less rubbish than quorn nuggets. There were examples where the vegan option was better but it made the point that they are often high in salt, sugar and fat - just like any other processed food I guess.

This is the bit I just don't get. If I decided to adopt a different diet, why would I make it look exactly like a degraded version of what I was already eating? Why assume that vegan food is crap because vegan food that looks exactly like carnivore food is crap?

One serious problem is that cookery and budgeting skills are not taught properly in British schools (as opposed to parts of the continent). The BTec in Food Tech that was on offer at dc's secondary concentrated a LOT on the presentation of food, arranging already processed items on a plate. There was very little on actual cooking techniques compared to when I was at secondary in a foreign state school or compared to what my nieces and nephews have been learning ever since nursery. Getting the nation to eat healthily and well is not considered a priority in this country. It should be.

Our staff canteen chef has obviously spent time re-educating himself on sustainable and tasty food, rather than dishing up stuff that just looks like standard canteen food. We could do that with the next generation: educate them.

It isn't so much the eating of meat, but the quantity needed, with our growing population.

We take up a lot the arable land and water in the third world, to grow animal feed, which is contributing to world hunger and disease.

That's as well as the over consumption of any products from the cocoa bean. We demand cheap chocolate and coffee.

It's now recommended that everyone over 50, regardless of diet take a B12 supplement. It's a bit like the Vit D thing, we now realise we haven't been getting enough, it didn't matter when we died younger.

Young women meat eaters don't get enough iron. You can't just judge on the need to take supplements because our food has changed so much.

We can't sustain our present consumption of meat. That's a fact. What we do about that is down to individuals and governments.

Substitute meat is for those who want to do their bit, but miss their old food. Like 'No carbs' carbs.

I try where possible to eat a vegan diet, by this I mean that if invited out to dinner by friends I will eat meat if it’s served. I come from a farming/hunting back ground I have no qualms about animals being killed especially if they are being humanly reared/kept as found in many UK farms. I am particularly familiar with the dairy industry (I cannot have dairy myself!) most dairy farms work on the basis that happy content cows produce more milk and our milk is rigorously tested and is one of the cleanest in the world. I try to eat vegan for where possible only for environmental reasons, livestock and cows in particular produce huge amounts of methane, I live a rural area and am totally dependent on my car (zero public transport) and I fly every five to six week again not through choice same transport issue so I guess it’s my way of doing my bit for the planet.
My DH and DS eat meat and I only buy organic locally meat produced meat and where possible grow/buy my own fruit and veg and again try to buy organic local.
I eat very few processed foods I cooked from scratch when I ate meat so why should this change? Even my DH who loves meat admits that many of the vegan meals I cook are delicious.
As part of my degree I studied the environmental impacts of fishing, it is a total disaster for our oceans so even before giving up meat I didn’t eat fish.
It’s also all about average the amount of food produced per acre, you get significantly less food per acre with livestock especially cattle than growing plants our global population is constantly expanding and we need to maximise the amount of food we obtain from our land. On the other hand I appreciate I know that not all land is suitable for growing crops and that livestock has shaped and also maintains much of our landscape. Finally nearly all our farm animals are dependent on man we cannot open the gates and let them get on with life without massive human intervention would n d to be euthanised, I’m not sure how vegans who are against killing animals reconcile this with their don’t kill animals stance. Veganusm isn’t a dilemma.
I accept that many can’t give up meat and dairy totally but we all significantly reduce the amount ate the environment will benefit and we will also need to be more questioning about how the meat/dairy we is raised and be considering food miles and sustainability. If we eat less meat maybe we will be prepared to pay more for it,cheap food comes at a price both in terms of animal husbandry, and sustainability.
As an extra benefit since doing it I’ve lost weight although don’t feel I’m eating any less, and I feel better and many people comment that I look better. I do take supplements calcium but D and B12 (I love marmite) I may eat enough my diet but as I’m now middle aged and post menopausal I am aware of the risks of osteoporosis and it’s just easier.
With regard to GM foods no GM crops are grown in the UK and any food containing GM crops has to clearly stated on the label.

For veganism to solve global environmental problems, then you need veganism to be come a huge mass global thing. That's unrealistic aspiration.

People have this Free Will thing. imho, Veganism shouldn't be made compulsory and meat-eaters shouldn't be shamed.

Maritime UK is a relatively low-carbon inputs place to produce meat. If the meat is going to be produced anyway, better UK produces it than most places in the world.

I’m not saying it should be compulsory and 18 months ago mainly eating a vegan diet was not remotely on my radar and my heart would sink if someone came for dinner and said they were vegan.
But if we believe that global warming is partly or even wholly man made and if we personally want to do something significant about it then very much reducing our consumption of meat/dairy will have to part of the lifestyle changes that we need to make. Separating our recycling is just not going to make any significant difference, I would love to use public transport most of the time instead of my car/fly but it’s not possible.
Maybe it’s the people I mix with but increasingly many say they are reducing their meat consumption or even stopping eating meat, (although not dairy many don’t seem to see the connection), decent vegan options are now on many menus in restaurants and I live in a farming dominated area, I regularly visit a large city and vegan restaurant are everywhere so it’s definitely becoming more mainstream.

Well, there we are.

The cocktails of drugs administered to livestock and the amounts of blood and pus allowable in dairy milk make my hair stand on end, that's a reason I'm vegan. Nobody has to be if they don't want to.

I o occasionally eat processed meat substitutes, in the same way omnis occasionally eat processed meats and Krispy Kreme donuts, but I'm mostly whole food based and my health has never been better. Stroke for folks.

Don’t need to eat processed meat etc substitutes regularly on a vegan diet same as omnivores don’t have to eat processed meat regularly. Marmite on toast for b12.

Solved it for you OP ✅

Of course people have free will. Just as they have free will not to throw plastic bags in the sea or to walk 10 minutes to the shop instead of taking the car.

But the attitudes of a society as to what is normal or acceptable behaviour can also change. In my grandparents' generation the thought of wasting food, of buying new food because you couldn't be bothered to eat the leftovers or plan frugally, was shocking: it showed you up as sloppy and uncaring. Now it seems a normal thing to do if MN is to be believed ("my dh won't eat leftovers"). With a changing climate and potential food scarcity we may well change that attitude.

A few years ago, everybody was saying that the plastic bag charge would never work (though it did in other countries) because there was no way the British would accept having to remember to take a shopping bag with them. Now you see more and more people bringing bags in and accepting that if you don't you have to pay.

A major problem with the argument of 'traditional farming' is that only 3.3% of all livestock reared in the UK is reared organically. I suppose it may make more sense to focus on the people who consume the remaining 96.7% and see what changes they can make.
By the way, as a long term vegan I eat few ultraprocessed foods, far fewer than most omnivores I know. This is pretty much true for most vegans I know. I don't think the success of the vegan sausage roll for instance is actually due to vegans. Greggs said they were selling in the hundreds of thousands in the first few weeks. That would suggest that pretty much all UK vegans would have bought one.

Maritime UK is a relatively low-carbon inputs place to produce meat. If the meat is going to be produced anyway, better UK produces it than most places in the world.

The UK does not, and cannot, produce enough meat to keep its own population with current levels of meat-eating, certainly not at today's level of low-carbon impact. Those of us who only buy British are able to do so because other people are buying imported meat and dairy from the EU or New Zealand.

If we do want Brits to eat British meat, we will all have to eat less meat.

Our milk is extensively tested including cell counts. Quite simply cleaner low cell count milk = more money per litre. There are no antibiotics in British milk, as when the bulk tanker reached the depot it’s all tested for anti biotics and if any are found to be in it then the whole lot is discarded then the individual samples taken when the milk is picked up from the farms are then tested to see where the anti biotics are coming from. The particular farm involved will obviously not receive any payment for that days collection may even face a fine if this has happened is the previously in the recent past. I’ve worked on farms with very high welfare standard and antibiotics have got into the bulk tank but this was totally accidental if your miking 300+ cows it’s easy to do it tape comes of tails or tired farmers just dont see it one cold dark morning.
Dairy farmers do use antibiotics to treat cows with mastitis/high cell counts but no one uses antibiotics unnecessarily the margins on milk production are very low. Milk from cows being treated with antibiotics has to thrown away again this is expensive for farmers as they are paid per litre so no one uses them unnecessarily.
High standards of husbandry = low cell counts.
As we leave the EU I and many others are concerned about animal husbandry the EU is not perfect but may of the regulations around milk production come from the EU. In the UK we currently don’t produce enough milk for our needs if we start importing cheaper non EU regulations may not be as stringent as ours including the use of anti biotics and cell counts.

Do the meat eaters who are so concerned about vegan processed food never eat sliced bread or a store bought biscuit or a sausage roll?

In the Western world and increasingly in the developing world there is tonnes of processed foods consumed. It’s not something vegans have a monopoly on. Plenty of vegans eat little or no processed foods. In fact there are less options open to them.

Meat doesn’t have to be organic to be sustainable I buy locally grown meat, with very low food mikes where animals are largely fed on a natural diet; plants but it’s not organic. But it’s more expensive than that found on supermarkets shelves. The problem is that we want and expect cheap food in particular meat and that comes at a cost to the animals themselves and our planet.

I am a vegan. I use nooch for B12, as well as marmite.
An increasing number of athletes are vegan. Watch 'what the health' on Netflix. It's very interesting.

I rarely use meat substitutes.

I eat clean. Cashews and pistachios are expensive but veg isn't.

If you are curious for answers, why not take a look at the Veganuary website? It's very good for answering basic questions. Reducing your meat and dairy intake is a great start.

Great thread, btw. It's a very important dialogue to keep open.

vincettenoir I agree at lunch times with colleagues most are shoving meat based processed ready meals in the microwave. I was looking at the lumps of chicken in a colleagues the other day I’ve never seen a piece of real chicken with that texture or colour before I’ve got a fairly robust constitution but it made me feel slightly queasy.

@tweedler not being goady, but can you actually explain what 'I eat clean' actually means? Thank you.

I fully agree OP. Human beings are carnivores.

Humans unlike domestic cats are not carnivores they are able to derive energy from plants as well as meat so they are omnivores.

And omnivores can thrive on a wide variety of diets. That's one of the reasons humans are able to live in a huge variety of environments.

Newsflash: a vegan diet doesn't consist of entirely synthetic alternatives to meat. You can use that argument to make it seem like a vegan diet is unhealthy all you like, but its untrue.

@onalongsabbatical it means eating non processed food (not only applicable to vegans, but also to those following a paleo diet etc)

"I eat clean"

What is that & why is it supposed to be a good thing?

ScreamingLadySutch
Oops, don't know what happened with that link, but a very thoughtful article defending traditional (not factory) farming.

A very thoughtful article? OP, you have provided a link to an anti vegan article by a food writer known for her anti vegan views, posted on the website of the proud winner of online butcher of the year (and other meaty awards).

Have you got anything a little more balanced to offer?

I'm vegan because of animal cruelty. Veganism is definitely the answer to that