Is Veganism the answer?

[ScreamingLadySutch]

"Something has gone far wrong with the public conversation of food when jackfruit, an unconvincing substitute for meat that’s usually imported in tins from Thailand, or a genetically modified fake meat burger dreamed up by Silicon Valley technologists, is promoted as a more ethical choice than a lamb chop from a British hillside. ...

Another obvious reality about the plant-based plan is that most people who adopt it will end up eating more ultra-processed food. But the ingredient list on vegan fake meat, dairy and egg products make my hair stand on end. Most of them are essentially a composition of heavily processed protein flours and water bonded with glues and additives, such as flavourings, colourings, and emulsifiers. It’s obvious to me that it’s the ultra-processed food we’ve started eating in the last 60 years that is driving the modern epidemic of ill health and obesity, not traditional foods, such as meat, in their unprocessed forms. ...

Now, compare that with a vegan diet. Unless you take a supplement, or eat an awful lot of vegan processed foods with added synthetic vitamins, you won’t get enough vitamin B12, because, as Harvard Medical School explains: ’There are no known plant foods that are natural sources of B12’. Now for me, any diet that leaves you deficient in vital micronutrients is a non-starter."

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@tweedler thank you. I like that then, and I think I can say I largely do it (the odd lapse). What perhaps used to be called a wholefoods diet (although that wouldn't be paleo).

The use of pesticides and so forth mean millions (probably more) of invertebrates, and the birds and small mammals which eat those invertebrates, are killed in the production of fruit, vegetables, and grains all over the planet.

Cereal might not contain any meat but that doesn't mean no animals died in the process of growing it.

Well of course not, but not eating at all isn’t an option.

Being a vegan is the least worst option as far as killing animals and animal suffering goes.

All those vegans who don’t eat meat because they are against animals being killed what do you propose we do with existing farm animal? I’m not trying to be trying to be goady it is a genuine question.

It's unlikely the world would go vegan overnight. Animals are purely bread for meat or milk would decrease in numbers as demand decreases. Just as they have hugely grown in numbers as demand has grown. We treat these animals purely as products. If there's no demand for the product, the product stops being made. For what it's worth, I am hugely inspired by robert McFarlane's suggestions for rewilding late areas of land. We need to find realistic solutions to food production, that enable us all to have access to nutritional food, but that also respect our planet. And as i believe all sentient beings have worth in and of themselves, I'd like to see the end of animals as products.

Google says that ewes live 10-12 yrs.
& that There are 14.6 million ewes in Britain today.
It would be cruelty to not shear them every year... so if everyone went 'ethical vegan' tonite : what's to be done with the wool for the next 12 yrs? Could farmers burn it for energy, maybe? Or is that still anti-vegan?

Sheep used to grow only the fleece they needed. We have bred sheep that now arguably need to be shorn (thought believe that depends on breed). Just think about it, in nature no one would have shorn a sheep. Yet some sheep have been bred to have additional skin folds ( bit like those designer dogs) to provide extra area for wool to grow on. It's very cruel, as this causes big health problems, like infections. The world won't go vegan overnight. If it did, I would suggest shearing sheep carefully when needed and using the wool. I would also outlaw the continued breeding of the sheep that suffer so much.

Why would anyone keep sheep if not to profit from them... as lawn mowers, maybe? Sheep are revolting.

Huge pigs are even less useful as "companion animals". Maybe if you need a field dug over in a hurry.

I don't propose keeping animals.

Well it looks like eating bats, koalas, wolf cubs, dogs and fresh kittens doesn't do your health much good.

Veganism, like wellness, the temperance movement and judgement round human behaviour, is the substitute for religion in secular times. It's often a way to excuse and condone sanctimony and self-righteousness towards others who do not subscribe to the same aesthetic. As such, it, like religion, is tedious in the extreme and an instrument of controlling others through fear, shame and judgement.

This assumes that you eat a diet where processed foods feature heavily.

It's quite easy to avoid jackfruit and very processed meat substitutes if you are cooking from scratch and eating lots of vegetables, fruit and pulses.

Totally agree, OP. All that fake meat is extremely strange and we won't know the effects of eating it for years.

In the past people used to eat meat once or twice a week - that is the most sensible approach to take. Buy good quality less often.

And by the way - industrial farming of anything has devastating consequences for the environment, just look at avocado farming or almond farming. The issue isn't eating animal products, it's trying to provide food for billions of people.

Whether we like it or not the vast majority of our farm animals are totally dependent on man for their health and survival. Most farmers look after their animals for commercial reasons they want them to be healthy and long lived so that they can get meat wool milk from them. Part of looking after them is maintaining their environment; the pastures they live in and byres barns shippons, treating any illnesses, providing fresh water, if there is no longer any demand for these products then there is no incentive to look after them who would do this?
Dairy cows cannot survive 24 hours without being milked, they require massive volumes of water daily.
We cannot open the gates and allow these animals to simply fend for themselves.
I guess the solution is a gradual reduction in numbers as demand until declines until the they just die out as a species. This is not a perfect solution but in the current climate crisis we are in the it maybe the only solution? But many animals depends on these animals e.g. the yellow dung flies so common in animal manure are obviously food for other animals.
I lived in an area of chalk meadows unsuitable for arable farming it’s amazing and extensive diversity is dependent upon low intensity grazing by animals.
I genuinely don’t know the answer as to how we can significantly reduce global carbon emission by reducing the demand for meat/dairy, preserve biodiversity often associated with grazing animals and also the dilemma of what we do with these animals if we no longer eat them, drink their milk of wear their wool.
As with all attempts at living a more environmentally friendly sustainable life it’s not simple.

I always laugh at the old “what if everyone turned vegan overnight?” We would be overrun by cows. It’s like meat eaters are doing the world a service by keeping the cow population at bay.

Most of the animals people eat now are abominations. A hen was never meant to lay 100s of years a year, their bodies literally collapse after a few years as it takes do much out of them. Cows were only meant to make milk for their baby calf, not the litres per day for hungry humans. Chickens bred to get so big in weeks their legs can’t keep up. The world will never turn vegan overnight it’s utterly laughable. Like everything else as demand for these animals goes down less will be bred into existence. I, for one, would be very happy if modern breeds of food animals died out.

I became vegan 3 years ago after 25 years as a vegetarian. For me it was not wanting to eat rotting animal corpses or drink their breastmilk which when you think about it is just icky.

As a human on this planet you are always going to consume resources vegan or not. Most vegans who go vegan for the planet do so as it takes a lot more resources to produce meat than plants. Most of the soya grown goes to feed animals. In the past we all would have eaten far less meat, it would have been too costly. Modern intensive farming has meant it can be produced very cheaply but at what cost?

Vegans aren’t perfect no one is, some days I’ll have junk food some days I’ll eat very healthily much like meat eaters.

I don’t preach or tell other people what to eat. My opinion is if you want to go vegan you will, what other people eat is their business. My advice to anyone would be try it and see how you get on, for me it was life changing, I feel much better and health conditions are better.

@PatellarTendonitis oh, do bore off with you uninformed and ignorant vegan bashing.

I am intrigued though, what the world would be like if all went vegan.
What would be the natural consequences.
Like disappearance of livestock. The animals who did so tremendously well out of being human food & fur: gone. As if extinction of most wild animals wasn't crime enough
Highland farming is already uneconomical... would it all revert to scrubby forest? I don't think the govt can afford re-wilding that that scale, tbh.

No more zoonoses is neat idea...tbf.

"I, for one, would be very happy if modern breeds of food animals died out."
I can accept this argument but traditional breeds needs equal care. Like traditional breeds modern breeds of beef cows only produce enough milk for their calves but still require humans to care for them and pasture to graze on. This pasture needs to be looked after, fenced in, pastures require rotation, traditional breeds still may require food in the winter, who cares for them when they are ill, pays the vets bills/feed bills/the cost of land management? Who castrates male calves, keeps numbers at sensible levels or you would allow them to breed willy nilly? These are not overgrown pets. They cannot roam where they like. Traditional breeds were ultimately "modern breeds" at some stage in farmings long history.
I'm really not trying to be goady I'm looking for sensible answers to these problems.

For those of you who are genuinely curious and after answers, I would strongly recommended the Veganuary website, which is a gentle introduction into the ethics. I do agree with PP, the current level of industrialized farming, artificial inséminations and mass production and consumption of everything is the problem. Please do proceed with caution though, as some farming practices are quite different from the images that marketing campaigns project and can be hard to stomach.

More local produce, with gentler rearing practices and eating less would be a really great step. But that would require more conversations like this, where people really think about where there food is coming from. I really encourage this, rather than pushing any vegan agenda (which only exists in vegan bashing minds/posts. I have never ever met a vegan in RL who behaves this way!)

My DH and children are not vegan, and we do talk about our options as consumers. I cook meat for them, we all make our own food decisions. But they don't eat meat every day, and we all cook together. Lots of fruit and vegetables.

Try taking a look at factory farming and saying animals have done well out of it.

As for.pp saying veganism is used to control. I amgenuinely unsure who I control by being vegan. I only offer an opinion when someone asks and I'm not sure.how that is tedious for you, as you can avoid this discussion if you dont want to join it. Please tell me who I am shaming because I am completely unaware that I have shamed anyone. I do it because it makes me feel better about myself.

I'm vegan and never eat meat substitutes. Alternative milks can be made at home and don't need to be flown any distance. Oat milks are a natural progression for oat producers and are now being made in Ireland for the first time.
B12 is supplemented in animal feed and that's the main source for most meat eaters so it's illogical to use this as a basis for criticising a vegan diet.

My vegan friend says the basic extinction of all domesticated farm animals, , is a necessary price that we'll have pay if we where able for example to address causes of climate change associated with cattle and methane. Maybe we have to accept this. Or do we look at alternative ways of reducing methane production by cows. I believe I read that input high, high output dairy farming where diet is tightly controlled as are permanently cattle kept indoors can reduce massively methane production. But doesn't sit well with animal rights types (although often welfare standards are high) or those opposed to killing animals or eating drinking their milk.

"But that would require more conversations like this, where people really think about where their food is coming from."
I agree and the answers are not black and white compromises will have to be made.

I don't think a lot of vegans fully appreciate the environmental impact of some of the things they eat. Appreciate that some absolutely do, but a lot don't. One vegan I follow on Instagram for example raves about Oreos constantly, which contain palm oil.
*
I think I eat with an environmental conscience, not a vegan one. I'm not sure either way is 'better' tbh.*

I agree, recently converted Vegan and Vegetarian friends are evangelical on social media about avocado toast and lots of food pics in social media of dishes made with fruit and vegetables most of which are flown halfway around the world. Yes we need to eat less meat but please don't feel to post virtuous nonsense about saving the planet by eating avocados.

Read up about almond production in California and the bees brought in killed by pesticide. I have IBS so cannot eat a vegan diet. Obesity is due to people eating takeaways, fizzy drinks and no exercise.

Why is there an element of misogyny in some pro vegan viewpoints? Breast milk isn't icky, so why liken another mammal's milk to it in an attempt to make it seem so? Why refer (as I have heard before) to eggs as 'chicken periods'? It just reinforces the idea that menstruation is something revolting and disgusting and, by default, that those who do it are, too.

The fondness that some organisations have for using naked young women in depictions of violence is deeply worrying as well. As is their attempt to appeal to men in terms of making sexual violence a good thing - the one with 'my boyfriend went vegan and knocked the bottom out of me' was a particular low point.

I appreciate that PETA is not all vegans. But they're a bloody loud voice.