To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

How can we know their feelings are genuine? Of course, we will never know. But I think you have to accept what people say about their own thoughts and feelings especially if it's consistent with their actions. Unless there's evidence to the contrary.

But why should we have to base our laws and the education of children around this feeling that some people claim to have?

Some religious people might think that all children should be educated according to their faith, and taught that they will go to hell if they don't believe. Should those of us who are atheists have the right not to believe, and not to have our children educated in this way?

What is gender identity exactly?

Nobody can ever tell us. Other than it's some sort of feeling, or essence - and that we're to accept people at their word, or we're horrific bigots.

Which does make it a belief system in my book, and not something that should be codified into law, casting non-believers as heretics and making them guilty of wrong-think or hate incidents, requiring police intervention.

What is gender identity exactly? In a way, it seems cool, the idea of children identifying with the other gender more. Like, boys looking up to women role models etc. Of course, that depends on what gender identity is. Maybe it's not cool, depending on how it's defined!!

This isn't what it is though. It's boys being told that if they like things that are for girls, maybe they are girls in boys' bodies. Not cool at all, since it means a lifetime of medication and surgery trying to convince the rest of the world that they are something they are not.

Why should anyone need a gender identity in order to just be themself?

I feel like there's so much still to be said about feminism and culture and race. True intersectional feminism. But you are right, the trans discussion is stifling everything else.

Feminism includes all women from all cultures, races, abilities and backgrounds.

Modern intersectional ‘feminism’ includes and very often centres trans people who were born with a male body and have lived life availing of male privilege, so I doubt that a GC feminist, such as joyfullittlehippo would find that kind of ‘feminism’ very welcoming. Stop trying to to paint GC feminists as racist. There are some that call themselves feminists that are racist, but there are also women hating and racist people who call themselves intersectional feminists. I know which feminism fights for the protection, dignity and privacy for women and it certainly isn’t the modern intersectional ‘feminists’.

*But I think you have to accept what people say about their own thoughts and feelings especially if it's consistent with their actions.•

So when women say they want to retain female spaces, such as changing rooms, support groups, shelters, etc, as they feel unsafe in mixed sex areas, that should be accepted? Great. I’m glad to see that.

So when women say they want to retain female spaces, such as changing rooms, support groups, shelters, etc, as they feel unsafe in mixed sex areas, that should be accepted? Great.

Absolutely. If someone says they don't feel safe, I believe them.

I think I have found the section the OP needs. It already exists.

I give you mumsnet's very own Philosophy/Religion boards.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/philosophy_religion_spirituality

Enjoy, OP.

Absolutely. If someone says they don't feel safe, I believe them.

But women are not being believed - single sex facilities are being eroded everywhere. Places are either going completely "gender neutral" (ie mixed sex) or allowing transwomen into female spaces. See Jo Swinson's disastrous interviews prior to the election. See CentreParcs and Marks & Spencer allowing males to self ID into female changing rooms.

I don't identity as a feminist as I don't like what it often represents nowadays.

Indeed, @Jargoyle. That's already clear from everything you've said so far.

There was nothing 'pompous' about a previous poster pointing out that you're no feminist. She was simply making an observation about what was already obvious.

You agree you're no feminist. Why, then, have you tried to tell us what should and shouldn't be on the FWR boards?

Others have already suggested that you ask MN for your own 'gender' boards. You might also request, say, a 'trad fem' board, on which you can advise others about how best to avoid discussing anything political, or where every post begins "Well, I don't really know, but I'm sure women less fortunate than us aren't really concerned about [include whatever topic you'd rather women never discussed]."

As for sounding 'pompous', I'd say it's quite pompous to try and tell women what we can and can't discuss, and also to assume you know what's important to women based on your opinion of their economic circumstances.

Good luck with the trad fem boards, though.

OP There’s a whole Brexit area but it doesn’t stop eleventy million Brexit threads here and elsewhere. MN likes to pretend to have places for stuff but also likes active threads to sell advertising and keep the Daily Mail supplied with stories

Where I live, I have seen more trans women around than ethnic minorities....

As feminists we are literally defending the right to define and organise along the lines of our sex.
All the sexism and sexist oppression I, and any other woman I know, have experienced has been because of our sex not because we were given barbies to play with or were made play hockey instead of hurling.
We can’t begin to fight sex-based oppression if we can’t name it.

Because they say they do and act as if they do. Same as if someone says they like chocolate and eats a lot of chocolate

Ok. So the observable fact that tells you someone likes chocolate is eating chocolate.

What are the observable facts that tell you someone’s gender identity?

joyfullittlehippo

Explain how wanting the freedom to express my own personal experiences of racism makes me a "wokester special snowflake race card uppity oversensitive fucking bitch n*r LIAR constantly playing the race card anti-white racist how dare you deny me my right to freedom of speech by calling me racist stop playing the race card!!!" (all of which I've had hurled at me)?

This was said to you on FWR??

Wow.

Jargoyle

Agree with JulyKit and others re “...that you ask MN for your own 'gender' boards.

I’d actually suggest you report your OP and asked MN to move it, as it’s become a trans thread (because of your comments), to a more suitable board.

Also, did you know Feminist Chat isn’t the only board in the FWR forum? So, if you’re not successful, or can’t be arsed, to start a new board, maybe you could find more suitable feminist threads in one of the boards in the forum?

What are the observable facts that tell you someone’s gender identity?

No idea.

The ops statement that most GC feminists are motivated by anger at losing their 'prime victim status' tells us everything we need to know.

I've said it before, if people don't like the preponderance of GC threads on FWR then start threads on other topics and discuss them. The GC feminists won't stop you. I reckon it's not happening because people aren't that interested in other topics. If you are, prove me wrong.

Agreed

I reckon it's not happening because people aren't that interested in other topics. If you are, prove me wrong.

"If you build it, they will come."

Or not, natch, because complaining is easier than building.

Some of the comments on this thread read like FWR (Feminism Chat to be precise), are a tele channel and the rate payers are bored of the content. Are we also supposed to amuse?

Someone suggested that we have to accept whatever someone says about themselves especially if it's consistent with their actions

So if a random bloke in the pubs says I can trust him to walk me home, I should? No need to think about the risk, at least until after he has taken advantage? You wouldn't think it foolish of me?

No need to do a dbs check as long as the person says they are trustworthy?

No need to check a passeport as long as the person says they are entitled to enter the country?

I rather think that there are times when trust is appropriate , and time when additional checks and balances are needed

I agree with you OP. The idea that there is still space to discuss other feminist issues in FWR is very far from the reality.

MNHQ seem to be increasingly recognising the issue though, if some of Justine's recent comments are anything to go by.

Having had a look at Feminism Chat there are lots of threads there that aren't about trans, one on the normalisation of choking for example, or only tangentially related, one on a professor needing security on her campus because of the threats she has received from students for example. I say tangentially related because the threats are coming from trans believers but if they were coming from incels or Fathers For Justice types the attempts to intimidate and control would be just as repellent.

These threads are there right now. Plenty of not trans discussion happening. The OP could join in if they wished.