To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

I just think this is not about the radfem libfem divide. In my opinion, it's about the trans debate taking over everything, including radical feminism.

I agree. I would be very happy to be a regular poster on a feminism board that had Discussion of trans debate appearing, I find it interesting and informative but for me atleast it is way too overpowering currently to make it worth engaging on there. I just don’t find it the all consuming issue that many do, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

it's about the trans debate taking over everything, including radical feminism

If we lose our right to define ourselves, it’s going to be pretty difficult to have any sort of feminism.

I would be very happy to be a regular poster on a feminism board that had Discussion of trans debate appearing, I find it interesting and informative but for me atleast it is way too overpowering currently to make it worth engaging on there. I just don’t find it the all consuming issue that many do, and I don’t think I’m alone in that.

Well, you know, as others have said, you can start new threads if you want to. Or you can contribute to existing ones. Or you can discuss whatever you want to elsewhere. It's that simple.

If we lose our right to define ourselves, it’s going to be pretty difficult to have any sort of feminism.

Exactly.

But it seems that there are still quite a few people - women included - who are genuinely unable to grasp this point and its inevitable implications and effects.

If we lose our right to define ourselves, it’s going to be pretty difficult to have any sort of feminism.

My background is academic rather than political, so for me feminism is more like a philosophical approach. I mean, as an approach it's been extended to other categories of people other than women, so I don't think we would ever lose that ability to think. Politically, I don't know much and I believe what you say. I'm not sure though that anybody knows for sure how these themes will develop in the future.

My background is academic rather than political, so for me feminism is more like a philosophical approach

Have you seen what is happening to feminist academics who refuse to capitulate to the idea that women have female biology?

Have you seen what is happening to feminist academics who refuse to capitulate to the idea that women have female biology?

Yes, and of course that's important. It's part of a bigger trend of limiting what academics say, though. Which makes it even more important not to be limited. We shouldn't internalise these tensions to the point where our own discussions are restricted. I mean, if we do that, why even defend feminism?

We shouldn't internalise these tensions to the point where our own discussions are restricted. I mean, if we do that, why even defend feminism?

I agee. I’m also acutely aware that many women - including those in academia - can’t risk their jobs because they also have other feminist issues...mine’s 7 and needs a roof over his head.

My background is academic rather than political, so for me feminism is more like a philosophical approach.

But I don't want to have a conversation about the general and fundamental question about my existence and what is a woman anyway.

When there's a man in my space, actually threatening my rights to privacy, dignity, and / or safety, then shits just got real.

I've provided one specific example of why a poster who would like to see more variety of content in FWR doesn't actually think "well just go off and start your own thread then" is a particularly constructive .

You could post on one of the threads that's already there. At the moment, near the top of the FWR board there are threads on objectification of women, women on zero hours contracts, surrogacy and FGM. A few other subjects as well if you scroll down the page.

But I don't want to have a conversation about the general and fundamental question about my existence and what is a woman anyway.

Exactly. It's all very well to take this 'philosophical'/academic approach when actually, your fundamental rights aren't in question at all. It's something else altogether when they are. Even (some) academics can grasp that one.

I left school with 5 GCSE's. For me feminism is about my everyday life.

Discrimination is almost always justified with arguments about safety, for example (we can't let black people mix with us - our whites women won't be safe; we can't let gay people marry - it is an attack on traditional marriage; we can't teach about gay relationship because it will make our children go madly gay; we can't let immigrants into the country - the crime rate will go up). The disproportionate attention given to the one issue is also a sign of discrimination.

You have conflated exclusion and inclusion on the basis of sex and age to provide safety for women and children with discrimination for purposes of maintaining the dominance/submission paradigm.

Opposing safeguarding by calling it discrimination as you have done is arguing the logical fallacy referred to as affirming the consequent.

For me feminism is about my everyday life.

Yep. It's not a lecture, or an existential chat over a pint.

#thisisnotadrill

I don’t think the majority of GC feminists do welcome debate actually, any opposing views do tend to be shut down with cries of an infiltration or patronising, sneering with a bit of a gang vibe.

It isn't surprising when you think about it. It has been many years since Feminists gave over trying to reason with people who wanted to debate if women are human or a subspecies created from Adams rib to serve mankind.
These days they get angry, patronizing, and sneering, when told they are transphobic if they fail to submit to male dominance displays.

Yep. It's not a lecture, or an existential chat over a pint.

... unless, of course, you're so young or so privileged that you can only recognise women's rights (or even our existence) as academic issues. There are lots of very vocal kids like that around. See e.g. Twitter.
Very often these kids identify as 'academics', rather than just calling themselves students, which is what they actually are. Conversely, they're often the same ones who shriek about 'white feminism', who imagine that including males in the definition of women is at the very heart of 'intersectionality', etc.
It's all very silly, and mildly alarming, especially when you see how woefully ignorant they are of basic facts. Still, I guess that being at college gives them something to do, keeps them or their parents paying good money to those who house, feed, clothe, 'educate' them, etc.

I don’t think the majority of GC feminists do welcome debate actually

Oh, we do. But so often it ends up with those who want to 'debate' us screaming abuse, having tantrums, claiming that our polite questions are 'confrontational', 'bullying' etc. - and flouncing off without answering those very politely presented questions.

Given all of the above, it's really quite remarkable how tolerant and patient many GC feminists are.

I've been on the FWR boards for a while now and never seen anyone "screaming abuse"
Polite questions though? You'd have a point if it wasn't questions a'la Mrs Doyle g'wan, g'wan style (think g'waaan" has even been used on this thread?)
Questions that you have to answer. Even if you already have (people just didn't like the answer though so tell you to try again.)

One of the things that really bothers me about his thread is the assertion that anonymity on a talk forum is insufficient to meet some people's need to feel safe.
Therefor, to feel safe they need to control what others can say.

@WotchaTalkinBoutWillis, I'm delighted you've not seen that on the FWR boards - and clearly, if that's the case, it somewhat undermines some of the things said on this thread about FWR posters being nasty, aggressive, etc.
Take a look at Twitter, where there's also a lot of discussion by and around GC feminists, and you certainly will see abuse hurled at GC feminists. See how e.g. Jana Cornel was treated.

You're grasping at straws if you're trying to say my use of 'Gwaan' was in any way abusive, and I'm sure you know that. Not even Cohle was upset about that. Cohle was much more riled by reasoned questioning.

Thanks for helping me illustrate the point I was making.

Cohle was much more riled by reasoned questioning.

No Cohle wasn't . I noted your style came across as needlessly adversarial, that's all. I'm sure people can read your posts and form their own views.

I agree OP. Dared voice an opinion other than the prevailing echo chamber trans-bad and got shown my ass repeatedly.

I avoid it there now, and stick with more reasoned debate elsewhere.

The pay gap, unconscious bias in medicine and teenage struggles with their identity or what they feel pressured to be give me far more pause than a trans gender woman using a loo next to me.

This thread has even been turned into the trans debate, and they won’t leave you alone until you give in or abandon your thread.

You also get called a troll if you disagree with their point of view.

... got shown my ass repeatedly.

In common parlance I thought this meant you lost, or where unable to, argue your point?