To think mumsnet needs a separate 'Gender' section?

[Jargoyle]

I've been lurking here for years prior to signing up, but have now all but abandoned the women's rights section due to the overwhelming proliferation of trans threads.

I get that self ID is a big issue but I was saddened, for example, during the whole Irish abortion debacle that the first thread on it was barely two pages long whilst people were happily discussing Caitlyn Genner's style comments until the cows came home.

I think a separate section would be beneficial where the same old posters can have the same old discussions about it all.

As I said above I'm not for self-ID, but so much of the stuff on FWR is just petty squabbling now. Posting pics of silly things teenagers have said on Twitter as if it's not the case that adolescents have always come out with some dumb impressionable stuff - 'punch a terf' etc.

I think the desperate scrabbling to defame 'the other side' has just become a bit tedious and hysterical now and actually undermines a lot of the genuinely pertinent points. It's evident when somebody dares to question any element of the GC narrative and they immediately get jumped by the FWR defence force who all mobilise and descend on the thread to call the insurgent a 'TRA/MRA/man' etc.

So tiresome and childish.

Ok so all those who want FWR to ignore the genderist cult.

Can you name 3 things you'd like to discuss instead?

You might find there are already threads on them. If not, feel free to start them.

Why would anyone want to sideline women discussing women’s rights? On a feminism board?

Why are you telling posters what to post, OP?

YANBU OP!

Maybe an additional feminism board that’s for feminists who aren’t interested in trans would be a better idea than expecting existing FWR members to post elsewhere?
I’m sorry I don’t remember the name of the thread, from memory I think it was a general thread about feminism.

Wow, I hadn't even read the previous two pages before posting my last post but they seem to be echoing pretty much what I'm getting at.

as if it's not the case that adolescents have always come out with some dumb impressionable stuff - 'punch a terf' etc.

Yeah it didn't feel dumb to Maria Mac, a 60 year-old woman, who was punched to the ground at speakers corner and the adolescent in question was subsequently convicted of battery.

It doesn't feel dumb to Selina Todd, an historian at Oxford university, who has to walk round her place of work accompanied by security guards because of credible threats.

I didn't feel dumb to the women who had to exit from a venue because of bomb threats, found credible by the police.

It doesn't feel dumb to the thousands of women who are not able to meet to discuss changes in the law directly affecting their rights, because of violent threats to the venues involved.

And it doesn't feel dumb when people try to minimise these bullying, intimidatory tactics.

It feels profoundly worrying.

Yes, the current board seems to be populated by threads about the same topic over and over again imho. I know I am not in the majority here but I personally am not worried about transwomen using female toilets....so, I have stopped reading that board because I didn't find it broad enough in terms of topics and tbh feel that if I express a view that is different to the current gender critical view that I will get a very cold response

So lobby for a liberal feminist board. Everyone can chat about sex work being work and all that gubbins.

I didn't feel dumb to the women who had to exit from a venue because of bomb threats, found credible by the police.

But this isn't just confined to the TRA crowd. Alt right proponents like Milo whatshisface and Warren Farrell have regularly had their events sabotaged by feminist setting off fire alarms and rioting to the extent the police have to intervene.

It's possible to debate like adults and rise above all the childishness but that's not what I see happening on FWR. Much of it is extremely disingenuous and desperately trying to slander the other side.

when somebody dares to question any element of the GC narrative and they immediately get jumped by the FWR defence force who all mobilise and descend on the thread

You are referencing the licking you got last night, without admitting that your arguments were weak, and this was pointed out. If you hold a view, support it with facts. Back it up. Nobody "jumped". They countered. You make it sound so military and planned...weird.

the views on here kind of give you a feel for where the authoritarian left are coming from

'you're talking about the wrong things'

'OK, why don't you start a conversation about the things you want to talk about? if people are interested they'll join in'

'YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE WRONG THINGS'

repeat until the universe implodes

some people seem to be unable to understand that other people have free will and aren't violating some sort of boundary by simply behaving in a way that suits them

But this isn't just confined to the TRA crowd. Alt right proponents like Milo whatshisface and Warren Farrell have regularly had their events sabotaged by feminist setting off fire alarms and rioting to the extent the police have to intervene.

If that's what interests you, start a thread about that!

Much of it is extremely disingenuous and desperately trying to slander the other side.

None of what I have said is disingenuous nor slanderous. Again, perhaps you could start minimising threats to women. You know, as a, was it? non-feminist, supporter of women's rights?

If you can find any slander on FWR, please go ahead and challenge it. In the meantime, without evidence, it would appear to be a slanderous comment itself. Ironically.

*stop

It's evident when somebody dares to question any element of the GC narrative and they immediately get jumped by the FWR defence force who all mobilise and descend on the thread to call the insurgent a 'TRA/MRA/man' etc.

Personally, I'm starting to wonder if you're actually a GC feminist undercover. Because if you actually believe what you're saying, it's been an inept performance.

You've started yet another trans discussion in AIBU when they only ever go one way, are losing your poll, and have delivered a garbage take that gave several of us the opportunity and platform to destroy the 'GC is only about privileged women' argument. Fine work comrade!

Show me where Milo had an event sabotaged by a bomb threats, or by masked feminists in the UK - then you're onto the same page that WPUK are on.

Julie Bindel famously shared a stage with Milo, to talk about free speech, at Manchester university. They even had a laugh together, despite completely disagreeing about feminism.

I think it was Antifa, not feminists, who had a problem with Milo in the US.

Antifa call women Terfs too.

I don't consider myself transphobic. I am very 'live and let live'. However, while we all have rights, you don't trample over somebody else's to get to yours.

I also don't believe anybody can change sex, so I expect I am viewed as transphobic by some people.

I've been on mumsnet for years. Have always seem posts moaning about FWR. The discussion can be more robust than other threads, so yes I think people need to be ready to back up their argument if the want to post something non standard. Not sure why that's a bad thing?

If you have something to say, start a thread about it. Just don't throw your toys out the pram when not everyone agrees. Be prepared to argue your position.

I am much more a lurker than a poster and have learnt masses from FWR. Thank you to all the regular posters for that.

I'm just going to leave these podcasts here: www.faircop.org.uk/podcasts
If this doesn't change your mind about FWR board discussions only being about "transwomen in toilets" then nothing will. The women on the legal team rock.

You are referencing the licking you got last night, without admitting that your arguments were weak, and this was pointed out. If you hold a view, support it with facts. Back it up. Nobody "jumped". They countered. You make it sound so military and planned...weird.

The only licking I got last night was from my cat.

It is militaristic and planned. Look at the strategic discussions taking place before the Jess Phillips webchat. Talk about how to circumvent the rules put in place to stop the GC coalition from dominating the thread, and then the subsequent discussion about starting a thread with all the questions she won't answer to make her look bad etc.

Mumsnet clearly recognise this as they've banned the ringleader to make a point.

The only licking I got last night was from my cat

When that is the level of engagement, my point is made.

YABVU - I also find it hard to believe that you have put forward your suggestion in good faith because there are so many contradictions in your posts.

One example of your contradictory statements that are key to this discussion:

Jargoyle said

"I consider myself to be a massive feminist."

also Jargoyle

"I don't identify as a feminist"

I am not sure if this next one is a contradiction because it is not clear if you consider yourself to be a "GC poster" or, as you so charmingly put it, "normal".

Jargoyle - "I'm gender critical"

Also Jargoyle - "GC posters are usually all over any thread to do with gender, whilst a lot of normal posters won't have given it a second glance."

So which is it? Are you "gender critical" or "normal"?

If you are a "gender critical GC poster", why are you complaining that there are too many gender-related threads on "Feminism Chat"? Surely you would be right in your element and enthusiastically contributing?

Also, in what way are GC posters are not "normal"?

I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that by not "normal" you mean, "not representative of the majority of women who are interested in topics to do with Feminism and Women's Rights".

The evidence of posts to FWR suggests the opposite, ie. that "GC posters" are the norm.

The reason is obvious.

To quote TheInebriati in this thread:

"Whether or not women are permitted to exist as a distinct legal class is the fundamental human rights crisis of this decade.

Everything else comes second to this. Everything includes the effects of austerity, the cuts to the NHS and women's services, and the crisis in education.

All of these risks to the well being of women and children are entirely artificial and driven by a controlling agenda that seeks to remove us of our existing rights. those rights were not just handed to us on a plate; women had to fight for them, and events today give us some insight into why that was and what an uphill struggle it must have been.

If you don't understand this then you don't understand either human rights or safeguarding."

As others have already pointed out:

• it is very easy to increase the range of topics covered in "Feminism Chat": if you want to discuss something relevant to Feminism and Women's Rights and it is not already being discussed, post a new topic.

• there are other Boards in FWR - have you checked to see whether the topic you are interested in is already being discussed in Feminist activism, Feminist book clubs, Feminist support or Feminist theory?

To you and everyone else complaining about women discussing "Gender Identity and Sex" on "Feminism Chat":

Why on earth are you wasting your time posting on this thread in AIBU when you could be starting new topics that you are interested in on "Feminism Chat"??

Hard to think of anything less reasonable TBH!

Jargoylesaid

"I consider myself to be a massive feminist."

Um, no I didn't.