Laurence Fox is an ignorant, spoilt brat.

[longwayoff]

What is wrong with this fool? Apparently in James Delingpole's podcast, heavy sigh, he criticises Sam Mendes for featuring a Sikh soldier in WW1 film. Ever heard of the British Empire, Laurence? How many Indians died for Britain? AIBU to say LF is being deliberately divisive and provocative and evidently doing his own publicity?

Lot of accusations on this thread about him that don’t seem to have much substance. I’m glad to hear someone speak out who isn’t terrified of offending someone and saying they wrong thing or what everyone is bring told is the wrong thing. I too am worried that kids in school and university are being indoctrinated and controlled on what to say and what to think. He possibly is a prat but I don’t know enough about him to form that opinion yet.

@SimonJT "He claims that racism doesn’t exist..." Does he actually claim that? Where have you read this?

Lizzie0869's post is perfectly clear. Certain people are happy to jump on the racism angle, and they are unwilling to stand up and put their public voices and stand up against the misogyny.

There was a faux-progressive point of view that sexually-exploited children were making 'lifestyle choices'. That needs to be condemned and certain people could and should get stuck into how the 'sex work is work' slogan fed into raped children being seen as choosing to be pimped.

They're not.

I'm vastly more offended by racism than I am by tokenism. But that doesn't mean tokenism doesn't exist.

The recent BBC drama Guilt was absolutely superb, but the apparently gritty realism was undermined by having two black characters (one a senior police officer) in a drama set in Edinburgh. The actors were excellent and I'm not going to take to twitter to moan or anything. But it's not realism if it doesn't reflect the actual population.

JamieVardy Playing devil's advocate, the term "colour-blind" is used an awful lot in the industry (I work in the theatre) by directors, casting directors, producers and actors. I mean an awful lot. We put out a casting call for a show last autumn and I received emails from actors asking if the production was operating colour-blind casting.

Although, as I've said on MN many times before, I never understood how racism came into any of it.

I've read the reports and I can't fathom how striving to be racially unbiased ever let to people ignoring children being abused.

I also don't understand why some people are at pains to argue that a load of rapists weren't racist. An organised ring of rapists is not who I'd go to for nuanced discussion of racial equality. They weren't solely motivated by racism, but I'm sure they used racist rubbish to 'other' those girls in order to justify their deeds to themselves, as abusive men and women have always done. Anything they can use to help them see their victims as lesser than them, they will use.

I've never been to Edinburgh so genuine question, aren't there black people in Edinburgh?

Laurence Fox is the voice of any disadvantaged people

Funniest thing I've read all day.

@JamieVardysHavingAParty I think it's more likely to do with the fact that the girls weren't Muslims. Some Muslims despise all who are 'infidels'. But once again, you've failed to address the point I've made repeatedly that these men will also have been abusing their own women, too. That's why we're saying that it's about misogyny rather than racism.

MorrisZapp wtf? We do have black people in Scotland you know!

It surprises me not a whit that the self-appointed colour-blind person has children who are very confused what basic words like racism mean

I should have clarified that LF did say that of course he notices the colour of peoples' skin but he treats everyone the same. I'm not surprised a child of 6 or 7 is confused about whether they are being racist or not - why should they be conscious of racism at that age when they have 9 non-white cousins?

But once again, you've failed to address the point I've made repeatedly that these men will also have been abusing their own women, too. That's why we're saying that it's about misogyny rather than racism

For the men maybe.

But the bigger racist issue was the fact that the police didn't want to highlight/prosecute due to the fact that this group of men were Asian and Muslim. Do we think if the group of men were white, the police would have been more rigorous/diligent in their prosecution? Probably. That is racism.

why should they be conscious of racism at that age when they have 9 non-white cousins?

Or should I say, why would a child of 6 or 7 have any racist thoughts when they have 9 non-white cousins?

Some Muslims despise all who are 'infidels'. But once again, you've failed to address the point I've made repeatedly that these men will also have been abusing their own women, too. That's why we're saying that it's about misogyny rather than racism.

You're right, I haven't. FWIW, I do 100% agree with you.

My feeling is that abusers abuse those who are vulnerable. They seize on justifications after the facts. It might be skin-colour, religion, or class. I do not believe this concept of decent, trustworthy men who believe in and follow a policy of enthusiastic consent with women of their own class (whether it be race, religion, nationality or anything else) and then turn into rapists with women outside that class of people. They just use anything available as an excuse why the woman deserved the abuse.

The expression 'woke' derives from the African-American vernacular 'stay woke'. It's absolutely not a white-woolly-liberal phrase; although maybe it is over-used to virtue-signal by people who are too lazy to do any of the critical thinking for themselves.

These women explain it far better:

Of course there are black people in Scotland. Currently 1% of the Scottish population is black. I've lived all my life in Edinburgh and don't remember seeing a black police officer, I'm sure they exist but in a very small proportion. They may also exist in numbers at promoted levels in the force but I hugely doubt it. It was jarring because it doesn't reflect the Edinburgh I see around me. (It was actually filmed in Glasgow but was was set in Edinburgh)

Most recent report I could find said there are black police officers in Scotland, couldn't find anything about Edinburgh. The report was 5 years old and said there was one black Superintendent.

Not watched the programme so don't know how senior the officer was but Superintendent is fairly senior, he must have been a constable, sergeant, inspector and chief inspector. He might be more senior now.

I should have clarified that LF did say that of course he notices the colour of peoples' skin but he treats everyone the same. I'm not surprised a child of 6 or 7 is confused about whether they are being racist or not - why should they be conscious of racism at that age when they have 9 non-white cousins?

I can't make sense of this as an argument. At that age, I was living on a council estate and going over to play with the neighbours' kids, who were mixed race. I had a clearer idea of what racism was than that, and I imagine I'd have had an even clearer idea of it if people had been being racist to my own cousins, not my friends. I think my definition would have been something like, "when you are nasty about people because they're not white. Like when you say they don't belong here because they're not white". I don't think I was particularly precocious.

At seven my kids had been taught a slightly more advanced definition of that. Far as I can tell, they've got it. Certainly wouldn't be asking if it was racist to tell their dad his cooking sucked.

JamieVardysHavingAParty That's very true. I experienced all of this with my F growing up. He used our Christian faith as an excuse for enforcing his role as 'head of the household'. I now believe that he chose to marry my DM, because of her vulnerability.

There are other conservative Christian men who don't do that. My DM recounted once in the past that a few of their wives were shocked when she told them that she'd allowed herself to be bullied into living in Saudi Arabia. She was surprised that they didn't understand it; now I think their reaction was more 'what an arsehole'. My DH and my 2 DBILS wouldn't dream of being like that, despite also being devout Christians.

My F also had the belief that 'a woman's adultery was worse than a man's adultery' and was very angry when I disagreed (he hated being argued with than anything). He was regularly accusing her of cheating. But then he asked my DM what her reaction would be if he cheated on her? Maybe SA didn't count??

It's misogyny, totally. Men like this abuse those who won't fight back.

Wonder how many black and mixed race seven-year-olds are confused what racism is...

Like when you say they don't belong here because they're not white."

I doubt the boy has ever heard anyone say that - aged 6 or 7.

Lizzie0869

Yep. Decent men are decent to everyone. They don't radically change personality and suddenly enjoy raping women. What they do, is grab the opportunity to get away with a greater level of abuse than they usually do.

I think my definition would have been something like, "when you are nasty about people because they're not white. Like when you say they don't belong here because they're not white". I don't think I was particularly precocious.

The definition of racism has moved on a bit from that though. It's not just about consciously doing stuff that is racist anymore, but also about things like unconscious bias and microaggressions. If you're a white person and you think you're sure that you know what is and isn't racist, then you're almost certainly wrong.

If you're a 7 year old white kid who has even a vague awareness of this kind of stuff then it is probably quite confusing.

I doubt the boy has ever heard anyone say that - aged 6 or 7.

Is your argument that no-one says stuff like that in front of 6/7 year olds or that no-one would have said anything like that in front of this 6/7 year old?

To the former, read my post again and work out how I might have developed that working definition of racism at the same age. Also, ask yourself how many mixed race seven-year-olds have no idea what racism is.

I don't know exactly what my children have heard at school, but I wouldn't wager that they've never heard any racism. They've certainly repeated sexist remarks back to me from the year they started school, and a friend's mum relayed to me the racist comments one little girl made to her when she helped out on a school trip. That was in year 1, so age 5-6.

To the latter, I repeat again "At seven my kids had been taught a slightly more advanced definition of that. Far as I can tell, they've got it. Certainly wouldn't be asking if it was racist to tell their dad his cooking sucked" which brings us back to the idea that Mr Fox sucks as a parent.