Laurence Fox is an ignorant, spoilt brat.

[longwayoff]

What is wrong with this fool? Apparently in James Delingpole's podcast, heavy sigh, he criticises Sam Mendes for featuring a Sikh soldier in WW1 film. Ever heard of the British Empire, Laurence? How many Indians died for Britain? AIBU to say LF is being deliberately divisive and provocative and evidently doing his own publicity?

The first use of the word was by me at 17:21 yesterday

The Battle of Britain was not just fought by white British males. There was a massive contribution from the Commonwealth

That you think pilots from the commonwealth were all non white or that none of them were British by birth/nationality (emigrants) is odd. Interestingly this is one of the few comments on here to mention British pilots, but predictably an irrelevant point about the colour of peoples skin just had to be thrown in there. Why mention it all?

They made a massive contribution to the Battle of Britain

Do you dispute that?

No they all made massive personal contributions and many, both British or otherwise, paid with their life

My question wasn't about personal contributions though was it? It was about numbers, but you already knew that.

Turns out the Commander of Number 10 group, who defended the South West was from South Africa

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quintin_Brand

She would say that as they were in the RAF that counts as British

Something I have never even once suggested.

My question wasn't about personal contributions though was it? It was about numbers, but you already knew tha

A contribution to the BofB yes, but in what way was it massive? Do you mean in numbers

I'm not denying there was some commonwealth contribution during the BofB, i'm just curious at it being described as 'massive'. Massive in what wa

Do you think men from commonwealth made a 'massive' contribution to the BofB. In what way was it 'massive

The reason I didn't reply to that was because I was out last night.

I clearly meant massive as in important. A massive contribution,

Yes - I do think they made a massive contribution.

Why are people so upset?

Good question

I agree, especially as most of these non British pilots were quite clearly 'white privileged males', according to what they normally say.

That you think pilots from the commonwealth were all non white or that none of them were British by birth/nationality (emigrants) is odd

You are deliberately misquoting.

The Battle of Britain was not just fought by white British males. There was a massive contribution from the Commonwealth

It was not just fought by white British males.

You did suggest that as it was under the RAF it counted as British effort.
.

Kitchener who died in 1916?

My grandfather (who was 60 when my mum was born) fought under Kitchener in the Sudan on the Nile Expedition to relieve General Gordon - they got there too late of course.

Which is why I knew he was dead long before WW2.

Sorry to digress

An interesting article on diversity in the RAF during WW2

www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/jan/15/raf-race-diversity-pilot-exhibition

"Al McLean, the museum's curator, said: "Too many of our visitors are white, over 50 and middle class. I want to appeal to more than just those people. This exhibition explains a side of our story that isn't recognised - that the RAF is not just a white public schoolboy occupation."

He added: "There is a comical stereotype of the RAF as full of tally-ho chaps. During the second world war there were lots of university students going into combat with 21 hours, but there were also lads from factories, and men from all over the Commonwealth who made up aircrews.""

This link is also interesting.

It discusses the 'untold story of RAF black service personnel' - so not just the Battle of Britain but the whole war.

media.nationalarchives.gov.uk/index.php/untold-story-raf-black-second-world-war-fliers-europe/

This bit is particularly interesting

And so you have these volunteers, like Basil Johnson from the Bahamas, who had to insist on being allowed to join. He volunteered four times, before being accepted on the fifth occasion. Interacting with your tally-hoe chaps types on the left and your chaps types on the right, all in the same unit. And a really important point here is that whereas for example in the American forces, they had segregated black units, the famous Tuskegee Airmen for example, in the RAF none of that happened. Everyone was mixed in together. So you would have a New Zealander gunner, a navigator from Jamaica, a bomb-aimer from Newcastle; they all flew in the same aircraft, they all lived in the same quarters, they all fought and served together. There was no segregation enforced whatsoever, despite the fact that the colour bar had only been lifted the year before.

I can only speculate if people like Lawrence Fox would complain at seeing a black airmen in a WW2 film?

Turns out the Commander of Number 10 group, who defended the South West was from South Africa

As was Roger Bushell who planned the Great Escape, it turns out. Richard Attenborough never sounded like that in the film!

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_Bushell

The things I'm learning because of this thread!

They must have felt alone.

WHERE IS THE HISTORICAL ACCURACY!! Its woke brits forcing it on us!

"Al McLean, the museum's curator, said: "Too many of our visitors are white, over 50 and middle class. I want to appeal to more than just those people. This exhibition explains a side of our story that isn't recognised - that the RAF is not just a white public schoolboy occupation."

I disagree that it is not recognised by people who are middle aged. I can distinctly remember being taught in the 1970's about commonwealth contributions in the war effort and that, unlike the USA, personel were not segregated. I can remember myself and other students, in the same history class, talking about our Jamaican and Indian subcontinent Grandparents and Grt Grandparent, uncles etc involvement in the both wars in general.

The problem now I think is that history is not taught as often or as well, and I think it is a subject students can opt out of now? It should be compulsory until school leaving age IMO

I honestly don't understand why people are engaging with the attention-seeking poster. It obviously doesn't actually want information, because it's been given that and ignores it (indeed could have found it for itself). It's just playing games.

Meanwhile, this is actually an interesting thread!

StarbucksSmarterSister, that's an incredible slice of history right there in your family. So many fascinating (and tragic) family stories here.

The problem now I think is that history is not taught as often or as well, and I think it is a subject students can opt out of now? It should be compulsory until school leaving age IMO

I think one of the problems is the media. I grew up with the war films and it's rare to see diversity in them.

Except in 633 Squadron. A wide range of personnel featured in that.

I think one of the problems is the media. I grew up with the war films and it's rare to see diversity in them.

Yes I agree but many of the really old ones only concentrate on the story of individual platoons, just a few men, also any of them were made during the war and produced for boosting morale at home, when th

civilians were under aerial attack, during the blitz for example.

The 'tally ho' posh portrayals are also not diverse. Most people were working class but they also knew that upper class people were likely to have been better educated and so probably in a better position to take control of situations and strategies. To many people it may have been reassuring to here a BBC clipped accent . I'm not saying that I agree with all that in principal but it was a different age.

I can only speculate if people like Lawrence Fox would complain at seeing a black airmen in a WW2 film?

You obviously didn't see the Twitter comments when World on Fire was on tv re Black men in Paris in the late 1930s, French Senegalese troops at Dunkirk.

By the way, to continue the theme of this thread being useful and interesting, here's a definition of Sealioning for those who missed Patroclus's inspired pun:

Sealioning (also spelled sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment which consists of pursuing people with persistent requests for evidence or repeated questions, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity. It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate".

The troll feigns ignorance and politeness, so that if the target is provoked into making an angry response, the troll can then act as the aggrieved party. [...It is] metaphorically described as a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings.

An essay in the collection Perspectives on Harmful Speech Online, published by the Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society at Harvard, noted:

"Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points—with a loudly-insisted-upon commitment to reasonable debate. It disguises itself as a sincere attempt to learn and communicate. Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target's patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable."

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Perking can you imagine a youngster from Worcestershire ending up in Cairo and the Sudan, in those days? On the other side of the family, one ancestor's regiment was based in Barbados in the 1830s. My ggg aunt was born out there

You obviously didn't see the Twitter comments when World on Fire was on tv re Black men in Paris in the late 1930s, French Senegalese troops at Dunkirk

Oh yes.

m not saying that I agree with all that in principal but it was a different age

Things are changing now. That's a good thing.

Even back in Nelson's day, the Royal Navy was diverse

historyhouse.co.uk/articles/nelsons_navy.html

The British Navy during Nelson's time was composed of not only British sailors, but many other nationalities. The crews of the ships that fought at Trafalgar included sailors from America, Ireland, Prussia, Sweden, the West Indies, Africa, and even France and Spain against whom the British were fighting. On Nelson's ship HMS Victory there were 22 nationalities involved in fighting on the British side

I bet Laurence Fox would be frothing at this picture.

Yes indeed! My family were very similar!

I actually had to check the dates of the Nile expedition: I think my relative died in Egypt shortly before Kitchener arrived there.

(Sorry, that was to Starbucks.)

Even back in Nelson's day, the Royal Navy was diverse

historyhouse.co.uk/articles/nelsons_navy.html

The British Navy during Nelson's time was composed of not only British sailors, but many other nationalities. The crews of the ships that fought at Trafalgar included sailors from America, Ireland, Prussia, Sweden, the West Indies, Africa, and even France and Spain against whom the British

Yes that was something I pointed out early in the thread.

The plinth of Nelson's Column commemorates a black soldier who served under Nelson. It's a portrait. We even know his name and he is traceable via military pension records. Bizarrely Afua Hirsch wanted the whole thing removed

sealioning sounds like what some leave/Trump supporting posters have done in the past, as soon as the poster in the receiving end gets aggravated then the report buttons get clicked and ban ensused