Laurence Fox is an ignorant, spoilt brat.

[longwayoff]

What is wrong with this fool? Apparently in James Delingpole's podcast, heavy sigh, he criticises Sam Mendes for featuring a Sikh soldier in WW1 film. Ever heard of the British Empire, Laurence? How many Indians died for Britain? AIBU to say LF is being deliberately divisive and provocative and evidently doing his own publicity?

Yeah I suppose that was the plan, also the power of paratroops was a bit of an unknown at the point. A lot of peole before the war as well thought that future was would be won by aerial bombing alone.

Another myth is that british pilots were all posho horsey Laurence Fox types. Not true at all. A large proportion of BOB veterans were urban, working class londoners.

I want to laugh at the crappy llittle planes the italians had, but an italian shot my great uncle in the arse so it seems inappropriate.

Yeah where is the historical accuracy mob in the poshos being fly boys in all movies.

As a side note I think part of the issue is that Britain never got invaded. Yes. Blitz was devastating. Carpet bombing wreaked death and destruction. But it was never wiped completely like parts of Europe. As a kid in Poland we’d go to play in a nearby forest in the 80s and you’d see bunkers and trenches and old trees with bullet holes. There would be cemeteries with tiny unmarked crosses spanning hundreds upon hundreds of graves of soldiers and POWs. War is present in Europe - it stares you in the face in every town square, and its peripheries. It is not unusual to pass a sign in a smallest village saying something like: 1000 people were executed here by the Nazis on X day. Auschwitz and scores of other labour/extermination camps. The town where my family is from was flattened. I’m not joking. Two fronts rolled through it back and forth and Soviets marching on Berlin fighting the retreating Germans along the way had brief to pillage and destroy as well so basically there are maybe 100 pre war buildings left in the whole town and it was a thriving and beautiful border town in 1939. The Brits did not experience this in quite the same way - this is not o minimise the loss of life here. Not at all. Just to put it in context of how other countries see war very differently. The Poles were invaded at the same time by the Soviets from the eastern border so the devastation was doubled. We were are still are hugely grateful to Britain for standing up to Hitler. But the moment we were defeated on our own soil out govt fled to london and was standing with UK side by side directing the polish forces who also were crucial at Monte Cassino (and BoB). Never mind the Russians who lost literally millions of people in the war (more than any other country if I remember correctly) and providing resistance in Stalingrad which finished Hitler. To then have to fight over semantics of who declared the war on whom seems just so... pointless.

But this discussion is hugely revealing in the levels of lack of awareness of the contribution of others to Britain leading the allied effort and this almost maddening insistence that it was a a sole effort with some “foreigners chipping in - bless ‘em” is just... weird.

What is that all about you think?

I actually think the Brits never got over the war, partly because it was our last achievement as a true world power.

Sues showed us we weren't any more, we took direction from the Yanks. After that we tried to enter the EEC for years but they wouldn't let us.

That hurt our national psyche so we mythologised the war and the daring do of plucky brits standing alone, with no help.

This has made us very difficult to work with in cooperation, we have this mentality of still being a great world power on our own.

We aren't.

But this discussion is hugely revealing in the levels of lack of awareness of the contribution of others to Britain leading the allied effort and this almost maddening insistence that it was a a sole effort with some “foreigners chipping in - bless ‘em” is just... weird.

What's weird is that you seem to be under the impression that posters either believe or have said that no one else contributed to the war effort. Instead of sneering, it would help if you provided direct quotes.

I know it's fashionable on MN to mock the British, especially the working class, 'gor blimey gawd luv em, heres a topic about that they dunt even spell words proper', but where has anyone suggested it was a sole effort?

white British forces history police on this thread getting triggered by all the incorrect reporting and feeling victimised and offended like LF think how all the non whites feel 🤣 it's too funny

Or foreigners!

Flax you said that Britain stood alone.a

It didn't.

Now playing the victim, like all right wingers love to.

but where has anyone suggested it was a sole effort?

"Look over there! A fish!"

Flax you said that Britain stood alone

Provide the direct full quote without censure.

Now playing the victim, like all right wingers love to.

For the 2nd time telling you. I'm not 'right wing'
BTW can you stop using personal insults. Thanks

It's too funny (brassbrass)

What's funny is that I have not only disagreed with LF about his Sikh soldiers comment, but I'm one of only a few PP who have given a detailed reason why I disagree with him

You did suggest it was a sole effort @Flaxmeadow sorry.

Where? And now its changed from said to suggest

Then got proved wrong on every occasion you moved the goal posts too.

People can make their own minds up about that by reading the thread

Why so triggered hun?
Im not triggered (whatever that means) but again, can you please stop making personal remarks

Full quote: " The BoB was a British Victory, there were no allied forces fighting at the time, apart from I think in Greece. Britain was pretty much alone" Flaxmeadow at 11.10

So, there were allied forces flying under their own colours in the BoB, the Royal Airforce also had significant numbers flying from allied forces. Allied forces were fighting in North Africa, and the Commonwealth countries were supporting the UK through the provision of resources, food and men for other duties.

No, Britain was not pretty much alone as you claimed.

Think that pretty much deals with this issue no?

@Flaxmeadow most of your time on this thread saying it was only Britain fighting in BoB. Then you acknowledged that it was some others yeah but “only” forces and tried to minimise their involvement. You asked for countries and spent another 10 posts to name another country that was in BoB. I responded to you actually upthread specifically naming that country that was formally in that battle as a named belligerent: Canada.

Do you have any other questions on this?

I’m not sneering. Far from it. I bloody love this country. I’m forever grateful for Churchill having the balls to call out Germany when they turned up in that massive ship to fire at a small military base on Baltic Sea called Westerplatte on 1st of September 1939 while nobody else had the guts - we celebrate it every year - the sacrifice of our servicemen and Churchill’s gesture. Every year at my school would start on 1st of sept with a minute silence for that reason. I’m even more grateful that Churchill fought hard after the war to keep those polish servicemen in the country despite huge opposition to do so and saved them from certain death. Our alternative government was here for years after the war kept safe from prosecution and providing hope to those behind iron curtain. We Poles never ever forgot that. Never. Even in spite of Yalta and 40 years of bloody oppression that followed. And at the same time, alongside this gratitude I see reluctance to acknowledge Britain’s huge asset - it’s ability to galvanise countless others in service of something greater than just this island. Because that actually requires acknowledging that anything of that magnitude has to be work of more than one country yet it takes quite something to lead it. And yet, just say after Brexit vote the grafitti on polish Cultural Centre (set up by those very war veterans) in london appeared - scrawled “fuck you” across the entrance. My fucking heart breaks when I see this level of hate and ignorance when we stood shoulder to shoulder mere 70 years ago in one of the greatest bloodbaths in history. So I’m not sneering. More like, don’t know... grieving.

@malylis

I think you’re onto something.

This has made us very difficult to work with in cooperation, we have this mentality of still being a great world power on our own.

In my post above to flax there is almost like an eulogy I accidentally poured out of my head (sorry if it’s mawkish btw but it’s from the heart) to that sense of cooperation that this country led and championed in the war that seemed to have got lost along the way. It was Churchill himself that said that something like “United States of Europe” was needed after the war to prevent another conflict like this for precisely that reason - to ensure cooperation was somehow enshrined and championed. Hugely prescient. It actually makes me so upset that he is used in pro-Brexit arguments as some sort of Brexit icon. He was anything but that in his pro-Europe sentiment. I know he’s a problematic figure in many other aspects (like many heroes of yore) but he was always first to recognise that this victory was a joint effort first and foremost. As did many others at the time because the horrors of WWII were so fresh in people’s minds. I think you’re right that suez was a trigger of sorts and drove Eden (and the country) into some weird imperial cul de sac of belief.

The WW2 posts are very interesting. I was having lunch today with a gentleman friend of mine who turns 90 this June. He was brought up in Torquay and was telling me about his childhood 'fun' hiding in beach huts when the MesserSmits (sp?) German aircraft used to come over firing at the kids on the beach and the town folks. Sometime he and his mates used to run to and fro along the sand, playing dodge the bullets. A great cheer would go up if the anti aircraft guns brought one down into the sea. Imagine letting DC play out in that!!!

Full quote: " The BoB was a British Victory, there were no allied forces fighting at the time, apart from I think in Greece. Britain was pretty much alone" Flaxmeadow at 11.10

So, there were allied forces flying under their own colours in the BoB,

It depends what you understand by 'allied forces'. If you mean an allied country No, they flew in the RAF. The clue to what I meant by it is in the next part of the sentence 'apart from in Greece'

the Royal Airforce also had significant numbers flying from allied forces.

Or numbers of men from other parts of the world who joined the RAF

Allied forces were fighting in North Africa,

As part of the British army

and the Commonwealth countries were supporting the UK through the provision of resources, food and men for other duties.

Which isnt 'fighting'

No, Britain was not pretty much alone as you claimed.

As a nation during the BofB it pretty much was , yes

Think that pretty much deals with this issue no?

Not really but at least you didn't misquote me this time.

I rather struggle with the idea that we can respectfully call the air Battle of Britain solely a British victory when there were so many overseas pilots being deployed in the skies above Britain, and our air success depended on the continued success of the parallel naval battles to bring Britain food. Otherwise the UK would simply have been starved into submission.

flax I wasn't referring to you personally, I caught up with the thread and it had derailed into some 'fact' bunfight.

The important facts are that foreigners fought and died alongside the Brits/English.

Cinema is trying to catch up with representation as audiences are instantly worldwide thanks to the internet. No more regional releases of films monopolised by a few distributors. It's not perfect and maybe not even accurate but at least it's tackling it. I'd rather that than carry on whitewashing. If you're irritated by posters lack of knowledge or reliance on googling blame the whitewashed history we've all been force fed.

As someone else said: Woke/snowflake police are using arguments similar to LF to drown out legitimate problems that are being faced everyday. It is utterly laughable that he is mewling about feeling attacked as a privileged white male. He said 'I can't help what I am, I was born like this, it was an immutable characteristic.' I mean 🤣🤣 this is so utterly ignorant and tone deaf. Zero insight to anyone who has ever suffered racism for equally immutable characteristics. Racism that goes back generations, centuries, killed millions and left a legacy which we are all still recovering from.

Britain is an amazing mostly tolerant place. It has far more heroes than wankers and LF is not qualified to comment on what is or isn't racist. When privileged white men have been through generations, centuries of annihilation, prejudice, sidelining hatred I might be prepared to listen. Until then he needs to get in line behind the non posh non male non white etc

Not mawkish at all, chocolatetrap. It's incredibly important to remember – and remember the realities, and how wars come about.

@Flaxmeadow most of your time on this thread saying it was only Britain fighting in BoB

Was it you who finally answered the question I'd been asking the other poster all day? You answered Germany V Britain (BofB)
Thanks.

Then you acknowledged that it was some others yeah but “only” forces and tried to minimise their involvement.

I have never minimised their involvement. It was me who posted the list of numbers by nationality. How is this minimising?

You asked for countries and spent another 10 posts to name another country that was in BoB. I responded to you actually upthread specifically naming that country that was formally in that battle as a named belligerent: Canada.

Canada had declared war on Germany but that doesn't mean as a country they fought at that point in time.

Do you have any other questions on this?

No

I’m not sneering. Far from it. I bloody love this country. I’m forever grateful for Churchill having the balls to call out Germany when they turned up in that massive ship to fire at a small military base on Baltic Sea called Westerplatte on 1st of September 1939 while nobody else had the guts - we celebrate it every year - the sacrifice of our servicemen and Churchill’s gesture. Every year at my school would start on 1st of sept with a minute silence for that reason. I’m even more grateful that Churchill fought hard after the war to keep those polish servicemen in the country despite huge opposition to do so and saved them from certain death. Our alternative government was here for years after the war kept safe from prosecution and providing hope to those behind iron curtain. We Poles never ever forgot that. Never. Even in spite of Yalta and 40 years of bloody oppression that followed. And at the same time, alongside this gratitude I see reluctance to acknowledge Britain’s huge asset - it’s ability to galvanise countless others in service of something greater than just this island. Because that actually requires acknowledging that anything of that magnitude has to be work of more than one country yet it takes quite something to lead it. And yet

I agree and thank you for this post

, just say after Brexit vote the grafitti on polish Cultural Centre (set up by those very war veterans) in london appeared - scrawled “fuck you” across the entrance. My fucking heart breaks when I see this level of hate and ignorance when we stood shoulder to shoulder mere 70 years ago in one of the greatest bloodbaths in history. So I’m not sneering. More like, don’t know....grieving.

You dont say if anyone was caught for the graffiti, which I agree is heartbreaking, so I can only assume it could have been anyone of any background? Are you blaming brexit voters for it?

No the Canadian Royal Airforce flew missions under their own colours. Fact.

Other men from parts of the world who joined the RAF mean that it wasn't a solely British effort no?

See your statements has been pulled apart and dealt with. It wasnt a British victory. Britain didn't stand alone or wasn't "pretty much alone".

Allied forces were fighting in North Africa, in their own battalions etc although under the over all command of the British Army. But then if we want to get into that level of semantics, D day was an American affair.

You are incorrect, and have been proved so on this thread many times by many posters.

Commonwealth support allowed the UK to fight the Germans, which means we weren't "alone". See there are two parts to your statement ?

Being at war and providing support for the war effort counts as the UK not being "alone".

@Flaxmeadow you have been repeatedly told, linked to, and even had copied and pasted evidence that the CRAF flew in the Battle of Britain, oh and Italy was a belligerent as well.

So no not just two countries.

Pilots from all over the commonwealth and from other countries too, mean that no, even though they flew under the RAF it wasn't just a British affair.