Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what your opinion is of Jordan Peterson?

164 replies

ethelfleda · 16/01/2020 17:29

I’ve heard his name a few times now, mainly people saying he is dangerous but that friends of theirs have started raving about him.
I only know what I have read within a guardian article (which I know is a biased source) but he does seem dangerous.
I thought I would ask the MN collective their opinion...

OP posts:
Scatterlit · 17/01/2020 14:54

I think he comes from a perspective of classical associations a lot of the time. If we believe that certain traits are feminine and others are masculine, they pertain to a historical ideal of manhood and womanhood.

You can argue about their place in the modern western world, but they were a "thing" historically.

Even now, if I ask you to fully imagine a man and imagine a woman, they would map pretty closely to those masculine and feminine ideals.

Only if the person you were asking to 'fully imagine' a man and a woman were as confused as you seem to be about 'history' and gender norms.

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 15:02

The one thing you know about people who attack his diet is that if he were a liberal they wouldn't do it.

Pretty douchey. If somebody has autoimmune problems and their diet clears it up, leave them alone.

AnArrestableOffence · 17/01/2020 15:06

@Scatterlit
Where's the confusion?

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 15:10

@Packingsoapandwater

"Any way you look at it, you are back to the notion that some attributes and qualities pertain to males. Why?"

Because they do - and the reason is hormones, put simply. If you want to deny the impact of hormones on behaviour and label acknowledgement of that fact as prescriptive 'biological essentialism' (which is a popular misrepresentation with pseudo-intellectuals at the moment), then we might have hit a dead end in the usefulness of this exchange.

But assuming that you can acknowledge that behaviour has a biological basis to some extent, that's the reason.

Development of human beings into two sexes relies is influenced by sex hormones and this is because many structures are sexually dimorphic - we are a mosaic of structures along continuums of sexually dimorphic development. So women have masculine elements and female elements to greater or lesser degrees. Hormones are what leads to the essential nature, culture layers on top the context. An essential nature can be acknowledged without this being an apology for essentialism.

AnArrestableOffence · 17/01/2020 15:11

@bloogaloo
In fairness, people constantly attack vegans, which is similarly restrictive and probably majority liberal.

That said, I think there are just a lot of people who want to attack Peterson because of his fanbase. It's pretty easy front to attack him on because it's "weird".

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 15:12

Apologies - I mean 'biological determinism'.

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 15:13

Yeah, different people.

Scatterlit · 17/01/2020 15:21

@AnArrestableOffence, what period/s are you talking about when you say 'historically' and that JP's references are 'classical'?

MangoFeverDream · 17/01/2020 15:23

His point was that women are responsible for mens violence

Does he state this specifically, or is this an interpretation on your part?

WeeSleekitTimerousMoosey · 17/01/2020 15:25

When he said men commit violence because women ignore them?

That in and of itself is not 'blaming women for men's violence'. It can just as easily be interpreted as blaming men for being pathetic losers who lash out when ignored.

I imagine the point in context was probably more nuanced than either of these extreme interpretations.

I've only seen Peterson interviewed on Joe Rogan's podcast and his comments on monogamy there were in no way blaming women for men's violence or suggesting women should be 'forced' into sexual relationships they don't want. They were simply an examination of societal changes and consideration of how society can deal with unexpected negatives that inevitably arise from them.

AnArrestableOffence · 17/01/2020 15:35

@Scatterlit
A lot of modern feminism and social activism is rallying against "regressive gender roles" that apparently persist, so "historically" is conceivably from the beginning of recorded history to the present day, depending on who you ask. Personally, I think gender stereotypes and the associated social expectations are still extant and a major part of Western society. The "historical" was a catch-all for people who would argue that they no longer apply.

In terms of JP's references being classical, he's quite explicit in his use of archetypes and ideas that have persisted through generations as a source of insight. He references the Bible often, which I think most people would agree is classical.

You mentioned that you felt I was confused about gender norms. How so?

I didn't mention my personal views on this in my original post so I'm interested in what your assumptions were.

TheRealMcKenna · 17/01/2020 15:52

I've only seen Peterson interviewed on Joe Rogan's podcast

Completely off-topic, but I love Joe Rogan’s podcasts, as well as Dave Rubin’s - really fascinating conversations.

easyandy101 · 17/01/2020 15:59

Why is he againt anti fascism?

Do you think fascism means what it meant even 10 years ago?

To me the definition seems to have evolved quite alot

I also don't think that orwell was exactly glowing when it came to describing practical socialism. He saw it for what it was.

He was in the anti fash brigade fighting an actual fascist, labelling people fascist for voting Tory is where alot of antifash is now, which is bleakly depressing.

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 16:03

@easyandy101 check out Matthew Goodwin on the Triggernometry podcast it's very good

easyandy101 · 17/01/2020 16:11

Have seen some of his talks before but not alot, will watch that tonight, nice one

TheRealMcKenna · 17/01/2020 16:14

The Triggernometry podcasts/videos are well worth watching. The recent one with Harry Mille ‘the police called me to check my thinking’ is quite terrifying.

MangoFeverDream · 17/01/2020 16:16

I've only seen Peterson interviewed on Joe Rogan's podcast and his comments on monogamy there were in no way blaming women for men's violence or suggesting women should be 'forced' into sexual relationships they don't want

My impression was that he wanted men to become better partners, become somebody that a woman would actually like, rather than say women should lower their expectations.

There are a lack of marriageable men in many developed societies. Since we don’t need to rely on men for the basic necessities in developed countries, we can afford to be pickier.

I think the burden should be on the men to do better. And I think JP has helped a lot of men try to get there (at least anecdotally)

LaurieMarlow · 17/01/2020 16:19

You got caught out. Its fine

A 20 minute chat on YouTube referencing Orwell doesn’t make him an Orwell scholar ffs.

Actual Orwell scholars would be affronted.

LaurieMarlow · 17/01/2020 16:20

But great that you fucked op your algorithms, thanks Wink

AutumnRose1 · 17/01/2020 16:33

I heard so much about him, I really wanted to listen to what he had to say, but found it impossible.

I thought his interview with Cathy Newman was watchable.

However, most of his views are things I’ve derived from other sources because of him being so hard to listen to. I think his views on women are a bit odd and sexist e.g. women dress to attract men, childfree women are weird, but I can’t be sure I’m judging correctly.

I hope he’s out of rehab? I thought he looked very unwell earlier in the year and recognised the “dead behind the eyes” look from my own mental health issues.

Trewser · 17/01/2020 16:34

Who's the what now? Why is talking about Orwell bad?

Endofthedays · 17/01/2020 17:02

‘There is nothing exclusionary - in itself - about reiterating these masculine perspectives. As you yourself have implied, even iterating these masculine interpretations of stories is now viewed as continuation of patriarchal values - so you shouldn't be surprised therefore that in many circles these perspectives have been lost. In my estimation, and experience Peterson would welcome critiques and reinterpretations of these stories to take into account the perspectives of which you talk. The point is, that for many people trying to lead productive lives but failing, the omission and denigration of the masculine aspect of their psyche does actually hold them back and cause them pain.’

Blogaloo, I don’t mean the following as a criticism of Peterson. Culture is vast and he has selectively chosen elements of it that create a masculine slant on cultural meaning which is clearly useful to many people.

I am not expecting him to be all things to all people. It isn’t a critique of his work to say that if someone were to talk specifically about typical experiences of women, they would pull together a different set of myths, not just reinterpret the ones he has highlighted.

What is perhaps useful about him is that he’s providing a way of building connections between different areas of life. He is saying you can take x common life experience and see it in a wider context of y psychological principle and apply z cultural myth to it.

But if you’re a woman, the putting together of the xyz is not done for you by Peterson. But it’s got me thinking about the depth of cultural meaning much more, which is probably a good thing in a world where we’re encouraged to do little more than critique everything.

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 17:16

@Endofthedays

Agreed.

Allycat1989 · 17/01/2020 18:06

I love him. He's not dangerous, he just doesn't mince his words. I encourage you to go and watch a few videos or Interviews with him. Most people who call him a transfobe etc have never even heard him talk, if you actually listen to what he said about Bill c 16 it was actually a good thing he highlighted how ludicrous it is and how exposed it would leave normal every day people who aren't involved in this bubble. Please make your own mind up about him he's really a very interesting person.

Allycat1989 · 17/01/2020 18:10

Don't just Google him go and watch his videos or interviews, he isn't dangerous at all. He actually makes sense on a lot of topics.

Swipe left for the next trending thread