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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask what your opinion is of Jordan Peterson?

164 replies

ethelfleda · 16/01/2020 17:29

I’ve heard his name a few times now, mainly people saying he is dangerous but that friends of theirs have started raving about him.
I only know what I have read within a guardian article (which I know is a biased source) but he does seem dangerous.
I thought I would ask the MN collective their opinion...

OP posts:
Endofthedays · 17/01/2020 13:09

I don’t see any evidence he hasn’t read it. It’s a very odd angle you’re taking on this Patroclus. You keep insisting on this belief he has about Orwell but can’t say why you think that.

Orwell was a socialist who criticised socialism while still advocating for it. Peterson has read that critique and says it forms part of the reason why he’s not a socialist. He claims to be a liberal.

LaurieMarlow · 17/01/2020 13:11

Maybe try reading the thread, Laurie, or just reading in general

Cool the jets, others are trying to have a productive discussion.

I’m not sure why you’re so hung up on his views on Orwell. Peterson’s references are very broad and wide ranging. He doesn’t position himself as an Orwell scholar.

Packingsoapandwater · 17/01/2020 13:13

I think a lot of the time people deciding that someone doesn't represent a 'female' perspective don't realise the haughtiness and perhaps ignorance in assuming they speak for all women, or even for the best interests of all women.

Ummm, I suspect my post has been misunderstood.

What I mean is that the foundation that Peterson uses to base his readings of the psyche and the world is inherently patriarchal. It's the realm of Campbell's monomyth and a pantheon of mythic archetypes ... supposed eternal "truths" that, when you consider them, are actually male perspectives upon the human experience.

You can see this very clearly when Campbell was asked what the female version of the hero's journey was, and he said there wasn't one -- because the female was the point of the (male) hero's journey; she signified "home". In short, in the world of Campbell, women don't have "journeys"; they exist as rewards/goals for the male transition into adulthood.

This is not just saying women should behave in a certain way or whatever, this is saying that women do not, can not and should not have agency. And I very much doubt that supporting the idea that women, on a fundamental basis by virtue of their sex, do not and should not have agency is remotely good for any woman at all.

When you look at Jung, you realise his ideology is very much a projection of his own experiences and perspectives. And the way he explains these psyche artifacts is to use mythic achetypes that map back onto an ancient patriarchal world view, the same sea that the monomyth swims in.

And this influences Peterson on a fundamental level.

For example, there's a lecture he does where he talks about Circe to illustrate the archetype of the sorceress/seductress -- and at first glance, this seems viable.

Until you realise that the entire legend of Circe and her portrayal as a seductress/poisoner, and the "danger" she encapsulates, is a story entirely portrayed from the perspective of a male sailor who rocks up on Circe's island, where she lives alone, with his crew and expects to be fed, watered and housed ... and god's knows what else.

From a female perspective, the story looks a lot different. A single woman, living alone, in the middle of nowhere, feeding herself from her own garden and fold, suddenly finds twelve starved, raucous soldier-sailors at her door, demanding grub? It's like something out of Straw Dogs. At best, they will eat her out of house and home; at worst, she'll end up dead after a gang rape. In that scenario, would anyone be surprised if she considered her options and decided to play along and then poison them before they could do her harm? She didn't even kill them, fcs.

So what, then, is Circe? The archetype of a dangerous seductress or the archetype of a hard-headed, pragmatic survivalist who values her own life?

It's this sort of deep questioning that Peterson never even thinks to consider. He just accepts the dangerous seductress archetype and uses it, further embedding these perspectives into culture and society.

That is what I have a problem with. That's why I say he sees from a male perspective and his work is drenched with it. And that is why I say his ideas map onto male experiences and not so well onto female experiences.

I mean, how many women have experienced the "danger" of a "seductress poisoner" in their lives? Compare this to how many women have experienced being alone and vulnerable in a situation, suddenly surrounded by potential threats to their safety.

One could argue then, that there is a male "version" of Circe and a female "version" of Circe. But Peterson just cannot see this, and his work depends upon not being able to see it.

JulietJanuary · 17/01/2020 13:17

Packingsoap that's very interesting.

GingerBeverage · 17/01/2020 13:20

This is the guy who only eats beef. He's good at convincing people he's smart.

Endofthedays · 17/01/2020 13:21

Peterson has said some things about motherhood and the pieta, and how our children are sacrificed by being sent out into the world, and that struck a chord with me. But I agree there’s no journey presented for the different phases of women’s lives the way there is for men.

I find some of his psychology helpful where he talks about the dangers of being naive.

I agree second wave feminism seems to have passed him by.

MangoFeverDream · 17/01/2020 13:29

Why does he claim Orwell would have been against anti fascism when Orwell actually joined the international brigades?

Surely you don’t mean the modern anti-fascists who go to university lectures to shut down ideas they don’t like? Seems not the same

MangoFeverDream · 17/01/2020 13:37

Why did he say about Alex Minassian (a murderer of 5) ''“He was angry at God because women were rejecting him. The cure for that is enforced monogamy. That’s actually why monogamy emerges

I have lived in places where polygamy is practiced. Poor young men with no hopes of marriage are dangerous.

Or what do you think his point was here?

Packingsoapandwater · 17/01/2020 13:55

I find some of his psychology helpful where he talks about the dangers of being naive.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I've a lot of time for Peterson, even if I do end up muttering at the screen with a furrowed brow sometimes.

Because Peterson is actually saying something -- unlike some other public intellectuals who just seem to spout a kind of word salad made up of fashionable phrases. I might not agree with what he says, but, in my disagreement, I am able to examine my own position and see the flaws within it.

But then I went through the system at a time when an ability to pick apart your own argument, and see your own prejudices and assumptions, was considered A Good Thing. But I am not so sure it is anymore.

bloogaloo · 17/01/2020 14:06

@Packingsoapandwater

I agree that Peterson espouses mainly from the masculine perspective - but I would say two things to that:

  1. I have used the word 'masculine' because I don't think that it's limited to male/female or man/woman. Women have masculinity too - its expression does adapt to the lived experience and situation of being a woman, but masculinity nonetheless. The women I know who valued his input into their lives valued it in terms of orienting and refining their own 'logos'. In this respect, Peterson is as he claims to be - his main cultural influence has been to redefine reiterate the historical development of masculine sophistication of being. The stories function through use of archetypes - not stereotypes - in this regard - so they are to be taken at a metaphysical rather than a literalist prescriptive level. And this is made clear.
  1. There is nothing exclusionary - in itself - about reiterating these masculine perspectives. As you yourself have implied, even iterating these masculine interpretations of stories is now viewed as continuation of patriarchal values - so you shouldn't be surprised therefore that in many circles these perspectives have been lost. In my estimation, and experience Peterson would welcome critiques and reinterpretations of these stories to take into account the perspectives of which you talk. The point is, that for many people trying to lead productive lives but failing, the omission and denigration of the masculine aspect of their psyche does actually hold them back and cause them pain.

People with a liberal mindset often have an a priori assumption that only the feminine or liberal aspects and thought patterns of a person's life can be held back and stunted. It's not the case, and many people who have grown up in bubbles which cast the development mythological interpretation as oppressive, patriarchal and distasteful - in the way you have - they actually miss out on the development of half their psyche.

Both is fine.

GenderfreeJoe · 17/01/2020 14:24

He strikes me as being someone who wants to sound clever and sciencey but isn''t really saying anything new
Indeed he isn't saying anything new. Although it might appear new and dangerous in a generation that demands safe spaces and no debate. At least Peterson does provoke discussion and debate, in spite of many universities who undermine academics and education by no platforming and bowing down to the woke. . It's not a requirement to agree with Peterson, although shutting him down without thought, debate, or even reading /watching anything but snippets of his work, highlights a generation of students who are incapable of critical thought.

Packingsoapandwater · 17/01/2020 14:36

Women have masculinity too

But what does this even mean? Any way you look at it, you are back to the notion that some attributes and qualities pertain to males. Why?

Jung places his concept of the logos in the "masculine" realm. Why? What is so specific about reason and judgment and discourse and rationality, and even (going way back) the very concept of the voice itself that makes it, in some way, a "male" trait? Why is reason not a feminine trait, for example?

This is what gets me about this. It's like "lets have these qualities bundled toegther as masculine and these as feminine, and just pretend that they don't map whatsoever onto actual biological sex class, that they are somehow eternal truths about the essence of a thing, but they've nothing to do with how we view and have viewed men and women."

Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:38

He does position himself as an Orwell scholar.
He regularly claims Orwell was on the right, against socialism and that he convinced him against socialism. This matters because it shows what utter guff hes capable of. Does he believe that or is he lying?

Does it matter hes never read marx put goes on about post modern marxism? can anybody tell me what that actually means?

Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:39

His point was that women are responsible for mens violence.

LaurieMarlow · 17/01/2020 14:42

He does position himself as an Orwell scholar

Don’t be ridiculous, he’s a clinical psychologist.

Any evidence to back up your points?

Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:44

erm the fact he tries to give lectures on Orwell perhaps? are you trying to pretend thats all he does?

Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:45
Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:45

great thats ruined my youtube algorithms

LaurieMarlow · 17/01/2020 14:47

Is he employed by an English department?

Does he give entire lectures on Orwell’s output focusing on his literary merits? Or does he occasionally use him as a reference point. That’ll help you understand the difference.

I cannot believe I’m actually having this discussion, it’s such a sideshow as to be ridiculous.

AnArrestableOffence · 17/01/2020 14:47

@Packingsoapandwater
I think he comes from a perspective of classical associations a lot of the time. If we believe that certain traits are feminine and others are masculine, they pertain to a historical ideal of manhood and womanhood.

You can argue about their place in the modern western world, but they were a "thing" historically.

Even now, if I ask you to fully imagine a man and imagine a woman, they would map pretty closely to those masculine and feminine ideals.

In the same respect, if I ask you to imagine a feminine man and a masculine woman, most people's mental characterisation will align.

The fact that the ideas of masculinity and femininity are not currently considered PC doesn't mean that they don't have utility.

WeeSleekitTimerousMoosey · 17/01/2020 14:48

His point was that women are responsible for mens violence.

When exactly did he say this? Or is it just your interpretation of his views on societal changes sometimes having negative as well as positive consequences?

Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:48

hahaha give it up ffs. You got caught out. Its fine.

Trewser · 17/01/2020 14:49

I quite like what he says about climate change.

Patroclus · 17/01/2020 14:52

When he said men commit violence because women ignore them? right up there, look right there? thats what he says. You want it to say something else, but thats what he actually says. Oh he didnt mean that, you want to say? then he should have said something different.

GenderfreeJoe · 17/01/2020 14:54

Great video. Thanks for posting. 😉