AIBU to think you should have to declare if you've had private tutoring on your UCAS form?

[ArcheryAnnie]

DS and his mates are at a state school and have sent in their UCAS forms, and are getting offers. They are all good kids of varying ability, most of whom get their heads down and work, but it is really noticeable that the kids who have had extensive tutoring in addition to school are the ones who have the best predicted grades and who are therefore getting the offers they want.

This is obvious, of course. Tutoring works, otherwise people wouldn't pay for it. I have no criticism of anyone who can afford it helping their kid in this way - and plenty do. 42% of kids in London get private tutoring, and the national average is something like 27%.

But other factors in your life that might confer advantages or disadvantages - like going to a private school, or growing up in care - are asked for there in plain sight on your UCAS form. Tutoring, which has such a big impact on your A-level grades, isn't asked about at all. It seems only fair that this is asked about too.

So - AIBU to think the UCAS form should ask how much private tutoring you have had?

I've just answered my own question. According to UNICEF 19% of children live in food-insecure households in the UK.

That's fucking heaps. Anyway, J just thought I'd write that here as my last post was so incredulous and I didn't want it to stand without correction.

19% that's fucking shameful.

@amaryllis: no, I don't under-estimate the admin time but I'd have thought that a lot of that was involved in setting up the scheme rather than running it. For example the students had to be trained before they were allowed to meet the pupils (yes they were DBS cleared). Once they had made that investment it seems a shame not to keep it up for the whole academic year.

The students were told they could not keep in touch with the pupils and continue to provide support outside the scheme, and obviously that makes good sense from a safeguarding point of view.

Still, the term of support was obviously better than nothing.

@sceptre I can't stand people like yourself who claim to be working class - covers a wide range of household income - and on that basis claim to know that everyone could afford tutoring.

Lots of parents do they just have to tighten their belts and make other sacrifices to afford it.

You have no idea.

I would be against it OP on the basis that we already have a reasonable level of info about disadvantage based on what unis already collect.

DD was flagged twice - once on postcode and once on the results of her school cohort. As a consequence she received lower offers.

I am sure there are people who can afford tutors, foreign holidays, more travel, more theatre trips, more educated friends to discuss things with and many other advantages in life, but I don’t think we can reveal them all on a UCAS form. The basic I went to a school with a group who get low grades and I live in a street where few people go on to university or get 5GCSEs is a rough approximation of disadvantage including likelihood of tutoring.

Students from disadvantaged backgrounds often get lower offers for various courses

We have this idea that the playing field must be constantly and repeatedly re-levelled. Any acquired advantage must be detected and negated. The Australians call it 'cutting down the tall poppy'. Think this through carefully. We want everyone to succeed, but no more than anyone else. Eh?

@exaltedwombat I disagreed with the OP, but I don’t think that’s what she’s saying at all. She doesn’t want the tall poppy to be cut down. She just wants a way to recognise that if some of the poppies didn’t get as much sunshine and water. If we can find out which ones didn’t, we can start giving them the same sunshine and water, and maybe a boost of plant food to make up for what they missed. It’s not levelling down, it’s levelling up. How wonderful to have a field with many more tall poppies?

I know this will probably not be a popular answer, but here goes. As a lecturer, yes there are advantages to having private tutoring, however I don't see the point of asking for it on a UCAS application.

I was fully aware of the students that had received private tutoring, some were unable to work independently as they weren't following instructions. Not a good skill fornthe work place.

The whole idea of going to university is to be able to work independently and thrive in your chosen subject. Most people take a subject that will lend them towards a career, not sure an employer will be interested in whether you had private tutoring or not as they wouldn't be offering that service. They will expect someone to turn up and do a job well and get paid for it. The evidence will be in the final grade of the degree, not everyone needs to have one and the number of people going to university is, quite frankly, ridiculous. Only get in to high debt if you know you will get a good job at the end of it.

I don't think it matters. Lots of applicants have different advantages or disadvantages that are too complicated to list, in a manner that would enable them to be considered before others due to a disadvantage if that's what you're getting at.

I really can’t stand posts like this. Many many people go without so much to give their children the best opportunities available to them. I.e one family may never go on holiday and pay for a tutor whilst another may not pay for a tutor and enjoy more than one holiday per year. What it’s got to do with everyone else I’m really not sure and why should those who choose a tutor over other things be penalized for their decision?

I don’t agree as my daughter misses about 35 percent of her GCSE s because of genuine illness so I have get help to fill in gaps at ALevel and give confidence

Heard the one about leading a horse to water? All the tutoring in the world won’t turn a pig’s ear into a silk purse. (Full of idioms today!)

Joking aside, a good friend of mine is a vet. He’s a really clever, well educated and intelligent man. He paid mega bucks for his two daughters to be privately educated. Neither went to University. One of them never had a job but married early to a man who could fund her lifestyle and the other played around with her own horses for a few years and now works as a groom. Neither of them are particularly bright despite their expensive education.

If a young person is determined to succeed they’ll do it anyway and just to chuck in a hand grenade University is not the be all and end all for success. Look at Deborah Meaden. She never went to University but I wish I’d got her business acumen!

Without wanting to offend anyone, there's a huge difference between having a qualified teacher tutoring you, and your Mum who just happens to have an A grade at A level.

Being good at something does not mean you are able to pass on your knowledge and ensure your child gets a good grade.

So what, you're only declaring official professional tuition?!

I was fully aware of the students that had received private tutoring, some were unable to work independently as they weren't following instructions. Not a good skill fornthe work place.

You may think you were fully aware but you wouldn't actually know if you were correct. Much of the time people get a tutor in a particular A-level subject because the teaching at the child's school isn't very good for that subject. How on earth would that effect whether they are able to work independently?

I did feel sort of forced to use tutors for some things for my lot. Don't agree with it at all, I think it is other cultures bringing it to this country and it should be BANNED. School teaching should be enough.

Didn’t read all the replies but I’m highly educated. I got a PhD in a STEM subject and speak 3 languages. While my DD doesn’t get tutoring, I help her everyday. We do additional work not just in STEM subjects but also in English and in the languages (I know) which are taught at her school. She does additional art classes.
She excels at school.
In paper it looks like there’s not tutoring involved, in reality, I’m her tutor.
That wouldn’t work though, if I didn’t have that level of knowledge but saved a bit of money to help her with a tutor. So, saying in a form if they had tutoring or not, it would have the opposite effect to what you are trying to achieve, OP, it would vilify the students that their parents saved to send their kids for tutoring.

so my daughter who has special needs should be penalised even more for going to a private tutor?

School teaching often isn't enough. Teaching quality is inconsistent, with schools finding it difficult to source qualified teachers in course subjects, and the increase in class sizes, students with high needs, the pressure on teachers with reference to admin' rather than actual teaching is increasingly decreasing the quality of education our students receive, particular in the bog standard state schools.

So yes, I'll use tutors to make up the shortfall if I can. Particularly because my kids are passionate about making the best of their educational opportunity.

@amispeakingenglish
And I think it's incredibly hypocritical to say that you used (albeit felt 'forced) tutors for your kids, but think it should be banned. And to blame it on other cultures.

Speaking as someone involved in admissions, we want to know two things:

1. what potential does the student have
2. will they be able to thrive on our course

The current system of education, exams and postcode related metrics tells us neither of these things.

Its very annoying.

My daughter has a tutor for Maths, not because she is bad at maths but because she is very good,, she is still expected to get an A in the subject without a tutor so would she still declare that despite it making no difference??

@amispeakingenglish other cultures?! Nonsense. It may be more prevalent in some cultures than others - my daughter’s tutor says she has a disproportionate number of British Indian tutees. But I’m in my 50s and grew up in rural Norfolk, and several children I knew - in my state school - had tutors. Did the British not invent governesses?!!

Of course you are being unreasonable. Is this a joke post?

My daughter got private tutoring during her GCSE’s in maths which brought her from a 3 grade to a 5. She got a 9 in English Language and is studying that and other non-maths subjects in A-Level. She wants to go to Uni to study English Language not maths - the subject we got her tutoring in to ensure she passed and wasn’t in the position to have to take a re-sit while studying her A-Levels.
Why should she have to disclose to UCAS that she had a maths tutor for her GCSE’s??
In any event, why should you have to disclose? A child can be tutored and not learn anything or not apply the learning. Tutoring itself does not provide an advantage - the child’s ability and motivation to learn does - something every University would probably want to have?

M3lon When I applied to Uni two generations ago (and polys were still polys and most people didn’t go to Uni), candidates were interviewed. A long interview in which, in my case, I was given a piece of writing which was not on an A level syllabus, and asked to discuss it with two tutors, posing answers to questions about it, a mini tutorial.

That, plus references from school and exam results, was used as the basis of an offer. Only Oxbridge now seem to interview for places to study English.

But we students felt as if we amounted to more than the value of our fees, that we were part of a shared passion and exploration of the subject. And we got far more teaching than students do now. In small groups.

Universities seem to have turned themselves into machines.

OK, a bit OTT. But Universities are hardly removed from the rest of the system.

It's too complex an issue and could unfairly advantage certain kids.

There's also no way to implement this realistically and actually it's none of anyone's business.

What do the universities even do with this info and how do they decide who had unfair advantage?

The question is, where does it end?

When parents have had to work 3 jobs to put their child in PS or for tutors and have struggled to provide, why should these children be viewed as "privileged"? Not every child in PS has rich parents?

Likewise, not all rich kids go to private school so what will the universities do to ascertain these nuances? Start looking at parents bank accounts.

No. It would not be fair to ask this question at all. I'm surprised YOU have to ask why it's a bad idea.