AIBU to think you should have to declare if you've had private tutoring on your UCAS form?

[ArcheryAnnie]

DS and his mates are at a state school and have sent in their UCAS forms, and are getting offers. They are all good kids of varying ability, most of whom get their heads down and work, but it is really noticeable that the kids who have had extensive tutoring in addition to school are the ones who have the best predicted grades and who are therefore getting the offers they want.

This is obvious, of course. Tutoring works, otherwise people wouldn't pay for it. I have no criticism of anyone who can afford it helping their kid in this way - and plenty do. 42% of kids in London get private tutoring, and the national average is something like 27%.

But other factors in your life that might confer advantages or disadvantages - like going to a private school, or growing up in care - are asked for there in plain sight on your UCAS form. Tutoring, which has such a big impact on your A-level grades, isn't asked about at all. It seems only fair that this is asked about too.

So - AIBU to think the UCAS form should ask how much private tutoring you have had?

The university contextual offers don't always reach those who need them most. DD got a couple of contextual offers from RG universities because she could tick the boxes and at the edge of the criteria (school, postcode etc)

Impossible to verify. Teachers are often parents too, and they can also 'tutor' their children in many informal ways. Does that count?
And then there are parents who will tutor or inspire their children by taking them to museums, etc, and engaging with them, compared to disinterested parents

I think this is unworkable really .How would they be able to prove whether your child has had tutoring or not ?! In any case so many children who will go on to Uni are from middle class backgrounds anyway .Mumtown Most Unis are under obligation to give places to children from under privileged backgrounds, to make it fairer overall .So a child with lower grades and an underperforming School ,would be seen as equal to those from better State Schools/private education.,but with higher grades .

By far the majority of kids I tutor go to private schools anyway.

Really bright kids do well regardless

I can't believe anyone is this naive.

Actually more young adults from state schools get in good unis now rather than privately educated.

Back in my day, tutoring was frowned upon and those who received that kind of help were seen as stupid.

How the world changes

I think the point is that while if you're bright enough, you can sometimes, not always overcome a lot of obstacles through sheer talent, we're losing and wasting talent from kids who are pretty bright but aren't able to do so. There are obviously examples of ferociously intelligent individuals who claw their way past a lot of disadvantage, but we need to be doing things for those who are similarly disadvantaged but are top 20% not top 1%, if that makes sense. Someone who's in the top 20% who has access to resources will likely be able to get tertiary education if that's what they want, someone of the same ability level without those resources may struggle much more.

Also, whoever said stopping tutoring would make things more equal, of course it wouldn't. Driving this sort of advantage into informal and inaccessible networks is terrible for mobility and equality.

@fiftiesmum I’d be interested to see the detail of results of contextual offer schemes. Well educated, motivated parents can be good at getting their children to go for these. My stepson got an offer via one, primarily because his father has a very low income. But his father was highly engaged with his son’s education and very supportive of university plans. The lower grade offer was a nice to have. But it made zero difference to whether my stepson was going to apply or get in. There’s an argument that ethically he shouldn’t have gone for it - but I don’t blame him for not taking that position.

@Sotiredofthislife my (state) daughter has a tutor. Tutor told me that almost all of her students are at private school, and not struggling at all. She said for a lot of them, she for want even feel that the parent is overly competitive and trying to get ahead of classmates. She said it just feels like she gets booked because it’s just the done thing in those circles. In the same way that you sign up your 5yo for baller without any expectation of the Royal Ballet School, you sign your 9yo up for a tutor, just because.

There are charities like the Access Project and Into University (and others) who tutor kids from disadvantaged families/areas to give them a leg up to University. Should that count against those bright kids when clearly it’s a positive thing?

My friend is a maths teacher and helps her son...how would you monitor parents helping their kids compared to paid for private tutor?

This would benefit those the most who haven’t had help from paid tutors but have highly educated parents who have taught their kids to a high level.

This. Highly educated parents are informally tutoring their kids from birth.

You can't remove disadvantage but at least mine know they got there cos of their hard work

So you're suggesting children who have extra lessons and in fact do extra work aren't working hard?! That's some special logic.

My DD doesn't have tutoring/she didn't have tutoring to get into her grammar. However, I'm fluent in the language she's studying and we often speak it at home - isn't this an advantage over children who don't have that?

Tutor told me that almost all of her students are at private school, and not struggling at all. She said for a lot of them, she for want even feel that the parent is overly competitive and trying to get ahead of classmates. She said it just feels like she gets booked because it’s just the done thing in those circles.

Well maybe that explains it... a friend of mine is a tutor and he tutors as many private as state school pupils. I don't understand that, I would be really pissed off with the school if I was paying for a private school and a tutor in the same subject. OK, in a state school the teaching might not suit your child and they might need extra help that the state doesn't offer, but with private education you have free choice of school. So that seems like like buying a dog and then hiring another dog to do the barking!

It can’t be monitored and if they attempted to then people would be secretive about it so they didn’t have to declare it. It is one of many ways in which children’s life chances are distorted slightly but to put it in context tutoring may be a substitute for a busy parent sitting down with their child to help them. Also some schools will give more extra support than others to help boost results. And, some tutors will be better than others. So success depends on many variables. Either you put in place your own steps to raise your children’s standards (tutoring would only be one method) or accept that they may get a slightly less desirable uni offer. However, success in life will depend on much more than which uni they go to so if some children need lots of extra support and this can’t be sustained they may end up being less successful than your untutored DC anyway.

Incidentally, tutoring is sometimes offered for children from disadvantaged backgrounds to help boost their life chances. A couple of adopted children in my wider family network have funds provided for tutoring as they are considered to have had a disdvantaged start in life.

ellis. DD choose on the basis on course and the uni - didn't realise she would be eligible until the offers arrived (some conditional on submitting something online). One of her friends at school was offered the Cambridge adjustment because of school and post code which came as a surprise.
This is the local comp with a large such form.
Both girls actually from educationally focused backgrounds with no obvious hardships and no tutoring

Large sixth form

42% of kids in London get private tutoring

Really? All my friends’s kids, and all my kids’ friends go to normal London comprehensives and I only know of one child who was tutored (in maths, to pass, not an eventual A level or Uni subject).

I understand your frustration about the non-level playing field, but this couldn’t be policed or enforced, so it could lead to a false sense of security. “Oh yes, we have now made the system fair by allowing for the amount of tutoring, so everything is fine”...... which would advantage the tutored even more!

I suppose if you’re able to afford £10K a year on school fees then an extra £1092 for 39 weeks of an hour a week at £28 isn’t that big a stretch. Obviously not for everyone, but for many.

Also, tutoring isn’t just something you do if your child is weak in an area. I got a tutor for mine in Y5, because I felt her ability was above her current teacher’s expectations. Maternal bias aside I wanted to just check I wasn’t being complacent that she was doing OK (I think her state school is very complacent - average results, but in a catchment of privileged children so I think contextually not so great results). I also wanted to see if I could re-engage her, as she was definitely losing interest.

When her Y6 teacher (who is MUCH better) found out she was tutored, she was confused as she didn’t think my child was struggling... and I could see she couldn’t really get her head round a tutor because you’re good at something. My child enjoys her tutor sessions just as much as she does gymnastics and ballet - it’s a fun activity for her. I was going to cancel a session last term that fell on her birthday - and she didn’t want me to!

Many studies have shown that it is the amount of time on task that makes the difference. So schools in Singapore and South Korea with such good math results just have really long school days amd virtually no holidays. Should the amount of hours a child is in school be declared? Im sure it varies in the UK too. My DS has lots of tutoring, but he is dyslexic and needs huge support in writing to get him to just normal levels. He is also gifted in maths, his tutoring there is keeping him engaged and interested as he is 2 years ahead of his school year, should he have to declare this too?

If we are going to solved really difficult problems like climate change we need our kids to be supported to their potential so that the brightest and most able in each subject can fly.... giving is the most chance of solving these critical problems.

The solution is not to dumb down some children that have a bit more opportunity, its to find ways of supporting all children better so that they can fly no matter what their challenges are be those home based, learning difference based or school based

The solution is not to dumb down some children that have a bit more opportunity, its to find ways of supporting all children better so that they can fly no matter what their challenges are be those home based, learning difference based or school based

This.

Sadly the powers that be don't seem to be prioritising levelling the playing field. You'd almost think it was to their advantage keeping people poor and disadvantaged.

And the current move towards reducing school hours in state schools is making the situation worse.
Its not about dumbing down. Society benefits if the brightest kids no matter their background get to use their talents.

It's a daft idea. A lot of the time parents only pay for tutors because the teaching is not very good for that subject and the tutoring will at best just level the playing field so they are equal to those with good teachers for that subject. And that's if the tutor is any good which for A-level will often not be the case. If you are noticing that children with tutors are doing better it could be just because they are doing more work.

Actually, given that the official tutor for English and my informal tutoring for maths has led to my Y6 being able to get 118-120 on mock SATS 7 months ahead of time, should her classmates have to tick a box that they’re getting 1/29th of their teacher time not 1/30th?

Her teacher has told me that she often pairs her with the middle range classmates, because she’s good at peer support in maths. So should those kids she helps tick that they’ve had the benefit of her tutoring (and her having been tutored). What about the lower ability range who are getting more teacher time because my daughter is helping out peers?

Ridiculous, right? I get what you’re saying in principle, but specifically on tutoring there are just far too many variables.