WWYD overreacting to hitty child

[Mumtown]

I’m quite at a loss here and would appreciate some advice.

So I have a mum friend who I get on very well with (only mum friend I could imagine being friends with outside of the context of our children). Her DS is quite violent I guess. Lots of hitting, pulling hair, biting etc. There hasn’t been a single play date where something this hasn’t happened. I’ve just seen it as kids being kids, my child is not averse to playing tough and has her moments too (not as frequently but even so). On a whole my child likes this child and asks to arrange play dates. Both children are four for context.

But a few things have happened over the past few play dates that make me wonder whether I should cut contact. First there was the knife episode. This happened about six months ago. The boy grabbed a knife off the kitchen counter and lunged at my child. Knife put away, nobody hurt, it was foolish of me to leave it out, all forgotten. Then nothing (except for the usual hair pulling and hitting) for a long time then a few play dates ago the child put a lamp cord around my child’s neck and pulled a bit. Again cord removed, all over in a split second and no harm done.

But since then we’ve not seen each other except at parties/out and about. We’re due to go to their house for a play date tomorrow evening but the thought of it is making me so nervous I can’t sleep. I’m worried about what may happen when they go play upstairs (they always do this, I couldn’t really follow them up without upsetting mum friend). I’m tempted to just tell her I have the flu but ultimately will have to make a decision one way or the other. Is this something normal that the boy will grow out of if I avoid seeing them long enough or is he a danger to my child and should I just stop arranging to see her?

This is a tricky one...you seem to be a really good friend and i think it would be sad for you to walk away from the friendship. Your friend is probably feeling very isolated as it is, parenting a child with behavioural problems can be a lonely existance at times and watching people distance themselves from your child can be heartbreaking to deal with. I totally understand you not wanting unsupervised playtime between your ds and his friend but i would explain to your friend your concerns. She may be hurt but deep down she will understand and may even prefer it as it gives the opportunity for these incidents to be prevented which i would prefer than having to deal with the fall out and embarassment of a child getting seriously hurt because of my child. This little boy is going to have a lot of people disappear out of his life because of his behaviour, if your ds is hapy playing woth him supervised and isnt copying his behaviour i would continue your friendship as you are being supportive but dont be afraid to voice concerns and let your friend no you will be supportive so long as your child isnt at risk...its a situation that will need monitored closely and if there wasnt an improvement it would need reviewing.

DV isn’t a factor because the household only contains the mother and child

Newsflash: mothers can perpetrate DV too.
As can uncles, cousins, the milkman, whatever. None of us know who might have been a presence in this little boy's life & what he has seen.

I don’t know how you can make so many excuses for her. This is NOT normal child behaviour, I also would expect a four year old to know not to pull hair or bite. The knife and choking incident were not normal for any child of any age, her child needs psychological help. You need to protect your child too, I would not be seeing her again.

I can’t believe this post. What does he have to do to your dd before you cut contact ?
Trying to stab her? Trying to strangle her? Hits kicks bites her ffs protect your dd.
Who cares if you upset your friend.

Who cares why he does it.
Stop contact tell your friend why and I might even consider contacting ss as pp have said.

They should really be supervised and kept within eyesight at all times, the previous incidents have been life threatening.

I have stepped in and kept my child within view for less, simply say no going upstairs to play. You don't need to give a reason as she is likely to know why without bringing it up in conversation.

Just yesterday a 3yr old bit my dc in leg so hard it bruised and almost broke the skin and he kept pulling her hair. I can forgive it because he is 3 and google says it is relatively normal at that age, but I won't be leaving him unattended with my dc in future as she is 9 and still wasn't able to defend herself.

You dc safety trumps your friends feelings in this case.

I would not allow unsupervised play but i think children of 4 can be incredibly silly and just don't understand properly the implications of a cord around the neck. Is the child otherwise pleasant? Eg gentle with animals, have any signs of showing empathy?

If it was a close friend I would say something like "oh these two will only prat about if we let them go off upstairs. Remember that time with the lamp cord?! We've probably given them a bit too much freedom, let's keep them in view till they are a bit more sensible!"

If the worrying incidents continue, have an honest chat to her, maybe suggest she chat to health visiting team to see if they can support a bit on behaviour and nip it in the bud before the child gets older.

I just wondered whether if I prevaricated he’d just grow out of it

That might apply to the hitting and biting but not the knife and cord.
You need to insist on supervised play only or no contact at all. Is there any way you could talk to her about trying to start the process of getting professional help with his behaviour? Or at least talking to the GP or HV.

@NoIDontWatchLoveIsland to be really honest I’ve never liked this child at all. I always found him creepy somehow. I don’t know why. He’s quite bright and affectionate generally. He mostly hits etc when something has happened to upset him as opposed to at random etc but I just find him a bit creepy somehow. I worry that this has coloured my reaction although judging by the responses I think I’ve been more than understanding it would seem. I think I’ll take you approach re reminding her of the cord incident rather than telling her what to do and continue with supervised play. I always have the option of cutting contact later on if necessary.

Reading your above post has me wondering if there is an underlying behavioural problem with this child. You seem to be very fair but if you are getting the "creepy" feel i would keep an even closer eye. Iv have had this feeling regarding a child in the past and could never shake it..and i was proved right with my concerns. I would give another chanve supervised but if anything else happens i would give serious thought to cutting ties..

Just tell the mum you think you need to supervise them a bit more and can they stay downstairs, you don't even need to say its because of these incidents if you don't want to.

The child is only 4 and wouldn't be the first child not to think through consequences, I work in a school, I have lost count of the number of children who haven't realised wrapping skipping ropes, scarves, wool etc round peoples necks is dangerous, we've not had knife issues but I suspect that's because there aren't any knives, hitting, hair pulling etc is ridiculously common because they are still learning how to deal with things not going their way, or get carried away playing. Point is it might not be anything he's seen or anything that is going to get worse, it might just be he needs a bit of support to learn how play with other children.

I got cold shivers from the story about the knife and later putting the lamp cord around your child’s neck.

Keep that child away from your little one.
I wouldn’t trust him around my child for even a few seconds.

Nah, I think you’re creepy OP.

I don't know any mother who would take such a blasé view of these things happening to their child and put keeping up appearances over their child’s safety and well-being.

i am sorry op I went through similar with a Very good friend. I gave it lots of chances with her son as I didn’t want confrontation and awkwardness but I was concerned about the example I was setting to my dd to allow her to play with a child that was pretty out of control with the aggression towards other children and also adults.

@MoonlightBonnet thank you so much for that. I'm really encouraged by your post. He is the youngest so he was watching things his brothers like on tv. I realised things like Trollhunters make swords look super cool...so we've cut back on that! It's the using things as weapons that's so worrying-his favourite game is pop up pirate. He's never interested in playing the actual game, just in swinging the tiny swords
It's awful on the fourth time round to be the mum of 'that kid' (not that he's ever assaulted anyone outside the family...but the worry is always there).

Woooaahh! You need to protect your child! A 4 year old pulling a knife and wrapping a lamp cord around the neck and pulling is not normal 4 year old behaviour. If this happened at school I'd be referring it to Safeguarding. Do your friend a massive favour by telling her the truth about why you won't be going on any more playdates.

OP, your daughter is relying on you to protect her. Do it. That's what you're there for. Keep her away from this kid & find her some friends who play normally & aren't a risk to her.

I've been the parent of the violent child. He was pulled up all the time, however whenever I raised his behaviour with nursery, preschool, school they said they didn't see an issue; the HV sent me on parenting courses and we tried all sorts of stuff. Stuff that might have worked on an NT child but not one with ASD. By the time he was finally diagnosed at 8 we had lost so many friends. People who thought I was neurotic for helicopter parenting at play dates or parties, people who thought I was lax because I couldn't stop him misbehaving. There was a lot of ghosting going on. Then there were the people who found things we could do with the kids that avoided flashpoints, or who organised child free outings. You need to decide whether her friendship is worth making the effort for, or whether it's a child-friendship that's run its course.

I think you need to step up, protect your child, and mention these incidents to the school so that they can decide if they need to look into it further - this child may have witnessed DV, or for all you know, being abused by his mum. Step up, for the sake of both children

You cannot let them play together without close supervision. If a child behaved like that my son's special school, they would always have an adult with them.

You are being quite flippant calling him a "hitty" child. Mentioning "the knife incident" and claiming you are overreacting. You and his mother are under reacting. This child is not behaving in an age appropriate way. His mother either needs support to find the right resources for him. Or if she's intent on burying her head and not addressing it then you need to go the way of the other friends and stop meeting them.

What would he actually have to do to your daughter for you to stop her playing with him. Are you going to just wait and see if he actually does ever stab her?

I understand that this is not typical behaviour for a child, and the child needs help and support. But you can only advise his mother to seek it. You can't do it for her.

I agree that young kids can play with things like skipping ropes in a way that does not recognise the danger. So wrapping ropes around a neck as horse's rein or dog's lead for example. That is dangerous, but normal 4-year old behaviour.
But your description of what happened OP sent shivers down my spine.
And yes children at 4 who are behaving like this are much more likely to continue to have issues into adulthood, unless there is some serious intervention.

Supervised play only. Reinforcing both children’s good behaviour at the time.
If the mum doesn’t like it then that’s her problem, it’s supervised play or nowt.
You were going to ‘break up’ with her anyway so if she says no then so be it.

Holy fuck, no!! Biting, hitting & hair pulling is awful enough but a knife & even more so a cord around the neck TERRIFIES me & I would not let my daughter play with this boy any more - DEFINITELY not upstairs, unaccompanied!! Who cares about offending the mum? It takes seconds for something serious to happen. I'd have to have a pretty blunt, honest conversation with her. If she stops being your friend, so be it.

What world are you living in where hair pulling and hitting is usual between 4 year olds?
Let me be very clear It Is Not Normal or Usual. EVER.

Keep away and tell her why, you have a duty to protect your child.

Hitty. Stabby. Strangly. This child would not be playing with my child unsupervised again (if at all).

We actually had a similar situation with a dear friend of mine and her “lively” DS. After a Scissors Incident a couple of years ago (no injuries thank goodness, other than to a beloved toy - could have been a lot worse) the DC have not seen each other again.