WWYD overreacting to hitty child

[Mumtown]

I’m quite at a loss here and would appreciate some advice.

So I have a mum friend who I get on very well with (only mum friend I could imagine being friends with outside of the context of our children). Her DS is quite violent I guess. Lots of hitting, pulling hair, biting etc. There hasn’t been a single play date where something this hasn’t happened. I’ve just seen it as kids being kids, my child is not averse to playing tough and has her moments too (not as frequently but even so). On a whole my child likes this child and asks to arrange play dates. Both children are four for context.

But a few things have happened over the past few play dates that make me wonder whether I should cut contact. First there was the knife episode. This happened about six months ago. The boy grabbed a knife off the kitchen counter and lunged at my child. Knife put away, nobody hurt, it was foolish of me to leave it out, all forgotten. Then nothing (except for the usual hair pulling and hitting) for a long time then a few play dates ago the child put a lamp cord around my child’s neck and pulled a bit. Again cord removed, all over in a split second and no harm done.

But since then we’ve not seen each other except at parties/out and about. We’re due to go to their house for a play date tomorrow evening but the thought of it is making me so nervous I can’t sleep. I’m worried about what may happen when they go play upstairs (they always do this, I couldn’t really follow them up without upsetting mum friend). I’m tempted to just tell her I have the flu but ultimately will have to make a decision one way or the other. Is this something normal that the boy will grow out of if I avoid seeing them long enough or is he a danger to my child and should I just stop arranging to see her?

Is the child watching inappropriate TV? He’s acting like he watches Walking Dead or some other hack and slash show.

Regardless, even if there were no concerns four is too young to be left playing unsupervised. You have very valid concerns and that only increases the need for parental supervision.

Your thread should be edited to replace “hitty” with disturbing or violent

No way under shy circumstances would I allow this child to play with mine even supervised in close proximity Bert mind out of sight upstairs.

If his mum is upset by that than tough. She needs to tackle this in her child now before it’s too late

At the moment OP, your acceptance could be what's stopping her seeing how bad it is. "Everyone else is being precious and wants to supervise my son, but Mumtown thinks it's normal behaviour because she's happy for them to play unsupervised. Obviously everyone else is over reacting."

He's 4. Occasion hitting is bad enough. This is a whole different league. I'd be extremely concerned where he is learning that violence gets him what he wants! Is there dv at home (the most "normal happy" families can have dv in them)? Does he have unsupervised access to the internet? Has he no consequences to his actions? He's going to be in school soon and this level of violence will not be accepted. If he isn't helped regulate his emotions and actions now, he's not going to when thrust into an overwhelming classroom. (A 5 year old just got permanently expelled for violence - his parents were saying he's just a baby etc. He's NOT a baby! He's a child that has learnt to be violent and needs help, not excuses.)

I'd also be concerned about what you're modelling for you dd: that it's ok for friends to hit you and hurt you and that you just accept it and move on and let it happen again and again until you are seriously hurt. She is too young to understand that just because she likes to.play with him doesn't mean she should continue to interact with someone who hurts her. That's your job. "But he's really lovely 90% of the time so I stay" sound familiar?

Disturbing - if you don’t want to hurt her feelings feign sick. I don’t know how anyone with good judgment could leave kids to okay on their own based on the hitting alone and the knife/cord is a different league.

I’m not a pearl clutcher with perfect kids - my dd get distressed on play dates and can hit/push which is why I supervise constantly.

The DM is clearly in denial as she can’t cope with more problems but the child needs help. Something is really not right there.

I'd be more concerned about what kind of behaviour the child is being exposed to at home if he tried to stab someone at three and strangle someone at four. This is not natural child behaviour.

It could be that the child isn’t coping with playdates socially and doesn’t have the words yet - my dc has certainly not seen it and has tried to get a knife before when terribly distressed, and my other dc didn’t understand squeezing a neck was dangerous - squeezes in general. That is not ok though and I can’t believe your friend thinks mums overreact by wanting to supervise. At best, her son shouldn’t be having those play dates if he isn’t coping to a certain standard and requires constant vigilance.

Speculating on the whys is one thing but this is a clear safeguarding issue for your dc and that’s that.

You could still go but you tell her that the cord incident has given you sleepless nights about what might have happened and you are not prepared to leave the children. She needs to get over herself if she's upset by that.
The alternative is to suggest a change of location to a museum or something where you have to supervise.
Tbh I would not expose my DD to this child again. I would be worried about what effect this is having on her. Having a cord around your neck is scary.
I remember being held under water by a rough kid when I was six. I didn't say much to my parents but never forgot about it. She may well be more affected than you think.

I can’t believe you are putting your child in a dangerous situation because you don’t want to upset your friend. And the fact the your okay with your child being hit, kicked and her hair pulled and now only slightly concerned she could have been stabbed or strangled! You are absolutely ridiculous!

4? I would be shocked to see 4 year olds behaving like this. Do they get any discipline?

Please protect your DD.
I'd be worried there is DV going on at home - the friend probably needs support, but without your DD being there! You said friend had a lot going on, wondering if DV is a part of it?
Does he go to nursery or share your GP? It might be worth reporting for safeguarding.
Something is very, very wrong for him to be modelling that behaviour.

How would your friend feel if her child really hurt or killed someone? I'm sure that she would be devastated. Personally I think that children as young as four should be supervised when playing and not unattended. I would simply say that you would prefer the children to remain downstairs in your line of sight in order to keep them all safe. If your child attempts to go upstairs, call them back.

Agreeing with everyone else - you must supervise if you go on the play date. There will be plenty of hazards upstairs - falling/being pushed downstairs, falling from Windows, scissors; hazardous chemicals and hundreds more.

Although you could state you want to supervise generally you could be doing your friend a favour to gently state that the chord incident has been playing on your mind and has she considered getting a referral for some help with his behaviour.

If you can't keep your child safe from this child then you need to stop seeing them or only meet the mother alone.

You are concerned that the mother will be upset if you supervise. How upset will she be if her child stabs yours with scissors/cuts her hair/pushes her down the stairs (breaks a bone), encourages her to drink something toxic etc etc. Not upset enough is probably the answer. She will minimise it so she doesn't have to face the reality that her child needs help.

@GrumpyHoonMain I doubt he's been taught its ok - my son has now been diagnosed with ADHD but before being medicated he put his hands round a child's neck at school, used to hit and kick a lot when things got overwhelming for him. I was absolutely mortified, I never ever condoned violence or made it ok, I used to go nuclear and I banned him playing with any weapon like toys. OP should absolutely protect her child, but its not necessarily the parents 'fault'.

My dd has had friends who can be as impulsive and violent as the lad you describe. There's definitely something going on there. You may not be able to get to the bottom of it.

I don't think you need to stop playdates, but in his particular case you cannot ever leave them alone unsupervised. (Or leave HIM alone either, as he may well injure himself or your property: I'd even follow such a child upstairs when he needs the loo and hang around nearby!) In addition to the immediate danger, there's the fact which others have pointed out, that you need to ensure your daughter knows she deserves to be safe and some behaviour cannot be tolerated. Both of my kids understood from an early age that people are different and this is why some kid-guests can be allowed to play unsupervised upstairs while others are watched every moment.

One of her best friends is never invited to our house because he trashes stuff. It doesn't make him a bad kid. We play with him at the park, or occasionally at his house. There were a couple of years when, even at the park, he had to be in an adult's line of sight at all times but at 10 he's past that phase now - and also my daughter is better able to identify what is and isn't acceptable behaviour so she wouldn't be so likely to tolerate being mistreated.

OP, how does this child behave when outdoors? Some kids seem to do better where there is more space, and less stuff to fight over, hurt other people with, or get overstimulated by. I'd still say he needs constant supervision, but it can be done from afar and feels less like hovering. Also some kids behave especially badly if they are conscious of being very closely watched, as they react against it - plus it's hard for parents to know when to step in when there are minor problems. If they are 30 feet away in the sandpit then you can ignore small incidents, and only intervene if you see things getting out of hand, or if your daughter comes to you for help or looks your way for help.

Whose fault it is is secondary to your DC being thoroughly terrified. No thanks to the playdate.

I know an estate agent aged 50 who spent his childhood stabbing my soft toys. Even in the 80s that raised eyebrows, and it was only teddies.

It might be worth a quick word with the safeguarding lead at school. Those behaviours are unusual (the knife and lamp cord) in a 4 year old and he may have been exposed to something violent. Anything you say will be confidential.

As others have said there’s no way you should allow unsupervised play. Even very young children can cause serious harm to others.

This sort of behaviour is not normal at all. I’d think either this child is being exposed to inappropriate TV/films or there is some domestic violence going on at home. Kids can go through phases of hitting, etc but to actually lunge at another child with a knife and then try to strangle them... that’s really far from normal. If you really don’t want to cut contact with the mum because of your friendship then I’d insist the DC are always supervised when playing together. Just think if you weren’t in the room during either of the episodes you mentioned... the consequences could have been horrific. Certainly not worth worrying about upsetting the mum.

Sometimes being a parent means hurting other people's feelings.

Step up for your daughter, for fucks sake. She needs to feel safe.

Why are you even asking?

This isn't "hitty", using knives and cords!! I would pull my DC from the friendship and explain why. It would be awkward but it's necessary.

Who cares about a pissed off reaction here?!?!?

It’s not accidental and it’s not age appropriate. It is very concerning behaviour in a four year old.
Either he is entirely inconsequential and has perhaps watched violent films or video games, and cannot separate fantasy from reality (does he have much older siblings?).

Alternatively he’s got serious anger management problems that need addressing whilst he’s young with a very clear message about right and wrong. Certainly he needs support with social and moral boundaries.

Either way your priority is ensuring your child remains safe. Downstairs play under supervision only. Any signs of violence you leave and tell the child why you are leaving at that point. “We are going home now Jake because you frightened Susie with scissors and that was very unkind and dangerous. You can come and play at our house soon but you have to be kind and not hit Susie”.

When I started reading the post I thought the children were around the 18 month, 2 age where you could say that biting/hitting etc is fairly normal.

At 4 I would expect that behaviour to be disappearing if not completely gone. If my DD had done any of what you say the boy has done I would have disciplined her immediately and made sure she knew her behaviour was totally unacceptable.

You need to protect your child. There may be something else going on with your friends son or there may be just a lack of discipline. But going to stab another child or strangle them is really not normal at all.

Best of luck, hope you get it sorted.

YY it is not necessarily exposure to violence or something like that - sometimes children with undiagnosed SEN can display behaviours such as this due to various reasons such as communication difficulty/overload/curious experimentation. Of course it could also be inappropriate exposure to violence - those are the two most likely possibilities. At four, whatever the cause, it's not that he's being "evil" or naughty (though obviously he must be told that it is wrong) - he can not possibly comprehend the long term consequences of these actions.

Your child needs to be your priority. Whether or not your friend gets help for her DC is hers. But her feelings need to come below your DC's safety.

What about meeting somewhere public where you'd have to have both DC in view at all times? Soft play, farm, park, museum, etc?

You nervous just thinking about it. Listen to your gut feeling and cancel the play date. Alternatively, move it to a safer environment. Maybe the park where you can supervise the dc.

The hitting and biting without consequences would be a no from me, without the other stuff.

Maybe say your DC has ants in pants and needs a bit of a run to explain the need to be out and about.

I don’t think the child should be completely vilified he is 4 and could be just be immature and not understanding the consequences of actions (although i can’t understand why your friend doesn’t feel the need to watch him like a hawk) ..the children obviously need to be supervised when they play- just bring some toys downstairs and be honest why. If she gets upset, then you are completely within reason to not continue play dates - as you have seen, things can happen in a split second when your watching them closely.

What are you thinking of doing op?