Using E-cigarette in a meeting

[StrawberryShortbread2001]

I'm a support worker and work on a ward. E-cigs are allowed in the communal rooms (lounge, dining room) and the bedrooms. The only time they're not allowed is in ward round.

We were having a community meeting which we have every week. E-cigarettes are allowed to be used during the meeting. This was a special meeting about a certain issue so as well as the usual service users, nurses, support workers, occupational therapists and social worker - the consultant, head social worker, psychologist and hospital manager were there. One of the service users was engaging and putting a point across with a bit of back and forth. She was using her e-cig when not talking. Suddenly the hospital manager looked at her a bit horrified and said 'are you smoking?' She said 'No! I'm using a e-cigarette' The consultant then jumped in to say she shouldn't be using it. She was embarrassed and confused at being called out on it and stopped engaging in the meeting. At the end she spoke to the consultant to tell him they always used e-cigarettes in the merting and he told her she should have known not to use it and she needs to be more flexible in her thinking.

Am I right to think 1. If e-cigs weren't to be used it should have been announced at the beginning of the meeting and 2. She shouldn't have been called out in public like that

It caused the service user a lot of upset and has really wound me up!

Out of interest would people consider a care home or residential unit a public place? What about a service users bedroom? Is that a public place?

@hugospritz - it's difficult because even though it is a public place it is also service user's home and we need to be very mindful of that.

(For what its worth i hate vaping/ e cigs/ real cigs the works )
But I actually think it's quite sad that the service user was picked on by a senior member of staff for doing absolutely nothing wrong.
Why did no staff member/ support worker stand up for her during the meeting and state to the senior person that the service user was allowed to smoke as per the rules.
Yes it was said later to the consultant but they should have been publicly embarrassed like he did the service user.
The service user will be very unlikely to take part next time.

@PleaseGiveMeAShake - I felt a bit intimidated because it was the hospital manager and consultant saying the same thing. I was suprised that a more senior member of staff didn't say anything.

Could the service user really not last a couple of hours without needing nicotine?

@CherieBabySpliffUp, surely the point is that she had no reason to believe that she had to?

@Equanimitas - yes exactly

"They are as horrible as cigarettes"

"No, they’re not"

Yes, they are. Absolutely disgusting things. And by smoking them in front of people, they are making people at the meeting suffer from them.

@tabbymumz - so what are you saying - they should be banned at meetings with the hospital manager and consultant? All meetings? Completely banned?

But the point is they weren't banned - so why shouldn't they be used?

Smoking prevalence in the UK is around 14.4%

Among those with serious mental health issues it's over 40%. This is one of the biggest factors in the reduced lifespan of people with mental health issues, who die on average 10-20 years earlier than the general pupulation.

All the tobacco control methods - plain packaging, nasty pictures of diseases, punitive tax hikes, shame tactics ... are not making any difference to smoking prevalence in this group. They just end up a lot poorer and feeling shitter about themselves on top of having an addiction with a 50% chance of killing them.

NHS are not allowing service users to vape on the wards because they feel sorry for them / it's their home / they used to be able to smoke ... They are allowing them to vape on the wards because it massively reduces harm and in many cases leads to completely quitting smoking. There is even evidence that some people quit smoking 'by accident' through vaping - i.e. they never intended to quit. It serves the same purpose as NRT (inhalators, patches, gum bla bla) but is more effective and far more popular.

E-cigs have been on the market in Europe since 2006 and there are currently an estimated 3.6 million vapers in the UK alone. While we don't have very long term data, we do know a fair amount by now because there have been an absolute fuckton of studies (of varying quality, to be fair) on ingredients, emissions and health effects.

When Public Health England say vaping is around 95% safer than smoking, that residual 5% is hypothetical long term risk for the vaper themself. The hypothetical risk for passive vapers is immeasurably small.

In the absence of evidence of any harm to bystanders, of course service users should be allowed to vape on the ward. It's just a shame they're restricted to such shit (and relatively expensive) products.

The rest is just etiquette and having clear policies that everyone is aware of and understands.

"They are as horrible as cigarettes"

"No, they’re not"

“Yes, they are. Absolutely disgusting things. And by smoking them in front of people, they are making people at the meeting suffer from them.”

Bollocks

I don’t think you can expect the hospital manager to remember the in and outs of every rule in every department so it is unfair to say that they were aware of the ground rules. I imagine every other department has an all out ban on e-cigs on hospital grounds and they were obviously very taken aback. Yes they will know they are used on premises but wouldn’t expect it in the meeting.

The consultant/chair handled it badly in his wording and not preparing the meeting properly.

I still think any meeting which is made up of extra ordinary members needs its own ground rules and e-cigs cleared at the start of the meeting. The response to the incident on this thread shows how uncomfortable so may people are e-cigs.

If you read my post it says nothing about them being banned.....but seeing as you ask...yes. I do think they should be banned in a public place. The lounge they sit in, is a public place. The care workers have to work in that public place. Their bedrooms is a bit tricky, as support workers have to go in there too, and they are a fire hazard. They should definately be banned in meetings.

@Pencils - that's why I can't understand people saying they are as horrrible as cigarettes - they aren't they are much safer!

We have quite a lot of smoking cessation support in the hospital. One of the incentives is e-cig cartridges.

"@Pencils- that's why I can't understand people saying they are as horrrible as cigarettes - they aren't they are much safer!"
Well you can see from this thread that lots of people do think they are disgusting. Me being one of them. I wouldnt like to have to sit next to someone smoking one in a meeting. They may be safer, than doesnt mean they are safe. It's been reported there have been deaths from e cigs.

E-cigs reduce harm from smoking/passive smoking for service users and staff and also reduces self-harm from service users and reduces incidents that put staff in danger and are distressing to service users.

It's because it looks a bit like smoking, Strawberry, and it's been open season on smokers for about 2 decades now.

There's a lot of this sort of thinking going on.

@tabbymumz - I just wondered what you thought. However I don't know any staff here that would agree. You may find them disgusting but they are safer than cigarettes and reccomended by the NHS.

@PencilsInSpace - ha!

It's been reported there have been deaths from e cigs.

Do you mean the recent deaths in the US? They were caused by bootleg THC cartomisers which were found to contain oils. Nothing to do with e-cigs/nicotine vaping. There is some extremely interesting politics going on in the US around vaping though and both media reporting and official info from CDC around these incidents has been shockingly bad.

We know inhaling oil particles is extremely bad for you. It causes lipoid pneumonia. We've known that for a long time, way before the invention of vaping. That's why no legally sold ecig or eliquid contains oil, or ever has done.

@TabbyMumz - how are they a fire risk?
@Lucked - the same general rules apply across the hospital (only 4 wards) and across all the hospitals in the group. It is completely normal to have agreed ground rules - if the hospital manager had queries about them she should have asked before or at the end of the meeting. She should have been well aware from seeing groups/meetings that service users do use e-cigs in these situations. But it really wasn't her place in a service user led meeting to suddenly decide to enforce her own rule.

@Lucked - the community meeting has ground rules established. The consultant/hospital manager chose to come into the service users meeting. If they were unsure of the ground rules they could have asked at the beginning of the meeting. But yes it would have hopefully saved this issue if the ground rules were reiterated at the beginning of the meeting for the hospital manager etc benefit.

you can see from this thread that lots of people do think they are disgusting

And that's absolutely fair enough, since they're fully entitled to their opinions. What they're not entitled to, however, is to insist that someone stops doing something that's allowable purely because they happen not to like it ... that's what the right to campaign is for

Puzzled.....the op has stated this is a hospital, so potentially NHS. It is normal practice in most workplaces (which this is) , that smoking is banned. I suspect this policy hasnt been followed very well. It's no longer the case that people can smoke where they want to.

@puzzled - yes, that was exactly it. She had a personal preference and thought it trumped what any one else in the community thought.