Using E-cigarette in a meeting

[StrawberryShortbread2001]

I'm a support worker and work on a ward. E-cigs are allowed in the communal rooms (lounge, dining room) and the bedrooms. The only time they're not allowed is in ward round.

We were having a community meeting which we have every week. E-cigarettes are allowed to be used during the meeting. This was a special meeting about a certain issue so as well as the usual service users, nurses, support workers, occupational therapists and social worker - the consultant, head social worker, psychologist and hospital manager were there. One of the service users was engaging and putting a point across with a bit of back and forth. She was using her e-cig when not talking. Suddenly the hospital manager looked at her a bit horrified and said 'are you smoking?' She said 'No! I'm using a e-cigarette' The consultant then jumped in to say she shouldn't be using it. She was embarrassed and confused at being called out on it and stopped engaging in the meeting. At the end she spoke to the consultant to tell him they always used e-cigarettes in the merting and he told her she should have known not to use it and she needs to be more flexible in her thinking.

Am I right to think 1. If e-cigs weren't to be used it should have been announced at the beginning of the meeting and 2. She shouldn't have been called out in public like that

It caused the service user a lot of upset and has really wound me up!

I don’t think you can expect the hospital manager to remember the in and outs of every rule in every department so it is unfair to say that they were aware of the ground rules

I wouldn't want to assume that, Lucked, since OP - who's familiar with those concerned - has said several times that they could be expected to know

Given the history she's mentioned of "shutting folk down", it seems to me (though obviously I could be wrong) that instead of discussing it all beforehand like a rational person, they've simply chosen to do the big "I AM"

@TabbyMumz - it's not NHS but yes smoking cigarettes is banned on hospital grounds but e-cigarettes can be used.

Sounds like the hospital manager and the consultant handled this less kindly than they could have. I can totally understand why your service user thought it would be OK to use her e-cig and why she would want to. Ideally, if this was not allowed it should have been discussed with them beforehand and explained why this meeting had different rules. Failing that they could have just asked them politely not to. Does the manager know general policy is that e-cigs are allowed or are they so removed from the day to day service they have no idea?

It is normal practice in most workplaces (which this is) , that smoking is banned

And a good thing too

However since this isn't smoking which we're talking about - and you might want to look a little more carefully into the difference - it seems a moot point

"puzzled- yes, that was exactly it. She had a personal preference and thought it trumped what any one else in the community thought."
Yes, this is what smokers usually do.

Puzzled....smoking policies capture every type of smoking, including e cigs. This has been the case for quite time now. Nobody is allowed to smoke anything in a public workplace. It's not fair on the workers you see, who are entitled to smoke free environment, including e cigs.

You are allowed to use an e-cigarette in your lounge - why shouldn't service users be able to?
Because their lounge is someone else's workplace. It's also someone else's lounge!

I'm allowed to say "no e-cigs in my lounge" - why shouldn't service users be able to?

@8MinutesToSunrise - she certainly knows they are allowed on the wards and I can't understand her not knowing that they might be allowed in a meeting as she does walk round the hospital - pop in on groups etc. She needs to open her eyes if she doesn't and get to know what goes on and why in the hospital she manages. But I think she was being arrogant to go to a service user led meeting and decide she makes up the rules...oh and she's not going to tell anyone what they are...until they break one! And then she'll make a show of them.

E-cigarettes can be used.
I suspect that's what happens in practice, but probably not in line with their actual smoking policy.

@tabbymumz - completely irrelevant comment. Just because 'smokers' might do that it doesn't therefore make it appropriate for a hospital manager to do!

It is normal practice in most workplaces (which this is) , that smoking is banned. I suspect this policy hasnt been followed very well. It's no longer the case that people can smoke where they want to.

Not only is it 'normal practice' for smoking to be banned in the workplace, or any indoor public space, it's the actual law.

Thank goodness vaping is not smoking, eh?

Otherwise, how could the government write about the use of vaping as an aid to creating a smokefree NHS?

publichealthmatters.blog.gov.uk/2018/02/19/creating-a-smokefree-nhs-how-e-cigarettes-can-help/

Also interesting that smoking is not allowed on ward rounds....which to me shows they dont want the hospital manager to know smoking goes on. I personally wouldnt like to be on a ward in a bed next to someone smoking an e cig.

@TabbyMumz - that's not true - e-cigarettes are not included in smoking legislation.

I find it funny that you think myself and my colleagues should be 'allowed' to work without e-cigarettes around. I've told you noone wants that. Why don't you listen?

Also I'm interested to know how e-cigs are a fire risk?

"Completely irrelevant comment. Just because 'smokers' might do that it doesn't therefore make it appropriate for a hospital manager to do!
Sooo what you are saying is that it's ok for smokers to smoke all over people, but if a hospital manager asks them to stop so as her workers arent in an unsafe environment, she is wrong?

@TabbyMumz - you do know using an e-cigarette is not smoking? You don't seem to know the difference. The hospital manager does not sit in on ward rounds. And everyone has their own private bedrooms.

Yes, out of interest, why not on ward rounds?

For TabbyMumz and anyone else hard of clicking, here is the text of Public Health England's 5 point guide to e-cig policy making. I do recommend also reading the longer PDF version available here:

www.gov.uk/government/publications/use-of-e-cigarettes-in-public-places-and-workplaces

1. Make a clear distinction between vaping and smoking
E-cigarette use does not meet the legal or clinical definitions of smoking. Furthermore, international peer-reviewed evidence suggests that e-cigarettes carry a fraction of the risk of cigarettes and have the potential to help drive down smoking rates, denormalise smoking and improve public health. So policies need to be clear on the differences between vaping and smoking.

2. Ensure policies are based on evidence of harm to bystanders
The evidence of harm from secondhand smoke is conclusive and provides the basis for UK smokefree laws. In contrast, international peer-reviewed evidence indicates that the risk to the health of bystanders from secondhand e-cigarette vapour is extremely low and insufficient to justify prohibiting e-cigarettes. This evidence should inform risk assessments.

3. Identify and manage risks of uptake by children and young people
E-cigarette use is not recommended for young people and this is reflected in the UK’s age of sale and advertising restrictions. However, because adult smokers use e-cigarettes to quit smoking and stay smokefree, the products can help reduce children’s and young people’s exposure to secondhand smoke and smoking role models. In developing policies for child and youth settings, guarding against potential youth uptake should be balanced with fostering an environment where it is easier for adults not to smoke.

4. Support smokers to stop smoking and stay smokefree
E-cigarettes are used almost exclusively by smokers and ex-smokers and are now the most popular stop-smoking aid in England. To help smokers to stop smoking and stay smokefree, a more enabling approach to vaping may be appropriate to make it an easier choice than smoking. In particular, vapers should not be required to use the same space as smokers, as this could undermine their ability to quit and stay smokefree.

5. Support compliance with smokefree law and policies
Maintain and support compliance with smokefree requirements by emphasising a clear distinction between smoking and vaping. Indicate accurately where vaping is permitted or prohibited, and communicate the policy clearly to everyone it affects.

smoking policies capture every type of smoking, including e cigs

But only if the owner of the premises says so - the reason being that the current legal restrictions around smoking don't apply to vaping, meaning each business/institution/whatever is free to make its own decisions as to their use

This is another reason why it's important to make a distinction between the two practices. It might be satisfying for those opposed to cry "Look!! They're smoking!!" - even when the difference has been explained politely and repeatedly - but it doesn't add a whole lot to the discussion

@TabbyMumz - have you read the op? Noone was smoking. Noone was in an unsafe environment. A service user used an e-cig which was allowed in the meeting. 'her workers' did not want the service user to stop using the e-cig.

@lucked - it is the consultant's personal preference

@PencilsInSpace - thanks - hope some people have a read. I had no idea there was so much ignorance about vaping.

"@TabbyMumz- that's not true - e-cigarettes are not included in smoking legislation."
But I bet they are included in the hospitals policy, as smoking policies tend to include all types of smoking.

"I find it funny that you think myself and my colleagues should be 'allowed' to work without e-cigarettes around. I've told you noone wants that. Why don't you listen?"

You dont want that, but I dont think you can include your colleagues in that statement. You can bet your bottom dollar that you will have colleagues who dont like it. In any case, any employer worth their salt will not allow smoking of any sort as at some point they might find themselves receiving a rather large claim, when one of their employees, or hospital patient claims their health was affected.

"Also I'm interested to know how e-cigs are a fire risk?"
Many e cigs have caused fires, have you not heard?
This all sounds a bit mad, what sort of hospital is this that allows smoking for goodness sake? You've mentioned that physios etc attend this meeting. One of them might complain too.

"TabbyMumz- have you read the op? Noone was smoking. Noone was in an unsafe environment. A service user used an e-cig which was allowed in the meeting. 'her workers' did not want the service user to stop using the e-cig."
Yes of course I have I've mentioned e cigs several times.
You have no idea whether the workers in that meeting likes the smell of e cigs or not. You have mentioned that there were several professionals in that meeting. They are protected by no smoking policies usually.

It's quite ignorant to think that because you are happy having smokers of e cigs around, that everyone else is happy with it too. I'm presuming as it's a hospital, you will have quite a turnaround of patients, a good amount of which wont like it. And a good turnaround of care support workers. And a good turnaround of physios, doctors, nurses etc. Are you saying a absolutely that none of these care about e cigs?

@tabbymumz - yes the policy states e-cigarettes are allowed. This information is on a poster in all the wards. There are lots of important reasons why policy allows e-cigs which has been discussed across the thread.

Smoking of any sort is not allowed. E-cigarettes are not smoking and are allowed. I can assure you we'd much rather the service users are happy which using e-cigs conteibutes to than having incidents that are dangerous and distressing to staff and service users. Lots in mental health were also against the smoking ban.

I've not heard and wondered what the fire risk was. Charging happens in the office but other than that service users have their e-cigs on them/in their rooms.

As I keep repeating - smoking is not allowed in the hospital!! And no there were no physios - did you get confused with psychologist? You do know it is a psychiatric hospital?