Using E-cigarette in a meeting

[StrawberryShortbread2001]

I'm a support worker and work on a ward. E-cigs are allowed in the communal rooms (lounge, dining room) and the bedrooms. The only time they're not allowed is in ward round.

We were having a community meeting which we have every week. E-cigarettes are allowed to be used during the meeting. This was a special meeting about a certain issue so as well as the usual service users, nurses, support workers, occupational therapists and social worker - the consultant, head social worker, psychologist and hospital manager were there. One of the service users was engaging and putting a point across with a bit of back and forth. She was using her e-cig when not talking. Suddenly the hospital manager looked at her a bit horrified and said 'are you smoking?' She said 'No! I'm using a e-cigarette' The consultant then jumped in to say she shouldn't be using it. She was embarrassed and confused at being called out on it and stopped engaging in the meeting. At the end she spoke to the consultant to tell him they always used e-cigarettes in the merting and he told her she should have known not to use it and she needs to be more flexible in her thinking.

Am I right to think 1. If e-cigs weren't to be used it should have been announced at the beginning of the meeting and 2. She shouldn't have been called out in public like that

It caused the service user a lot of upset and has really wound me up!

Obviously the consultant and manager were out of order. If ecigs are allowed in the community meeting then a change in rules should be agreed beforehand.

I work in low secure too. Vaping is allowed in the secure courtyard or on leave only. No ecig/vape device is allowed inside. They are all kept and charged in a fire proof cupboard in the nursing office.

I'm suprised they're allowed the cigarette looking ones though. They got banned in our trust after someone snapped one in half and self harmed with it, apparently there had been a lot of incidents similar to this in the medium secure unit as they sold them in a vending machine.

I never agreed with the complete ban on smoking, however I think outdoors only is the most appropriate rule for vaping. You keep saying it's their home but it isnt, its hosptial. We tell our service users they can make it "homely" but ultimately it's still hosptial and they have to share the place with others so the rules should accommodate everyone, not just those who smoke/vape.

@fizzypoo - agree
@Mlou32 - yes pretty much. E-cigs are not allowed in the corridors or in ward round. We have a balcony - actual smoking has to be off the grounds, though. As I say, though it wouldn't be that for someone to find a place without e-cigs - we only have 12 patients. But yes I agree it could be hard for someone to speak up.

@Mlou32 - and yes I agree the smoking ban is a contentious issue.

Thanks for replying. I was there 6 months, some friends over a year, so I have no idea whether I was considered long term or not, and pretty much my only thought each day was what do I need to say or do to get out of here!
From memory there were 10- 15 of us ( they expanded towards the end- hence the lovely shared room) we each had a named nurse ( who had 3 of us with a similar diagnosis) and 3 or 4 support workers would float around, more in the evening.
The support workers were all smokers themselves although were not allowed to smoke with us, so I think genuinely couldn't see the issue or that those of us who were not smokers had very little choice but to spend time in smokers rooms, as they were clear in their opinion that smoking anywhere wasn't an issue, and that as we were all smokers didn't see the need for change. I quickly internalised that for me thinking differently and asking for something to change may have caused a fuss - completely incomprehensible at that time.
What I am saying is that by making urgent changes to the policy (making the ward manager and consultant the bad guy) so that everyone has choices by making the kitchen vape free at certain times and then making the lounge vape free at others, And by making most of the meetings vape free, you may inadvertently ease the pressure on several service users who could never say anything, but for whom the current situation causes immense stress.
It also establishes a fair baseline moving forward as non vaping users enter the wards, as right now if someone like me did enter for whom certain emissions make ill, it could destabilise several service users carefully constructed coping strategies by suddenly not being able to vape at all times, and being held solely responsible for such a change could have killed me or someone with a similar diagnosis. The reason for my admission ( final straw of course)is that I blamed myself for a workplace change, even though it had literally nothing to do with me , so you could imagine my reaction if the change to the whole ward was because of something I said or did.

OP, you are unreasonable to expect sensible opinions based on reading your clear posts about anything relating to anything remotely connected to smoking in these forums.

Since I did read your comments and comprehended them...yea the consultant and manager were out of order. If there were going to be different rules they should have been made clear at the beginning. Barring that, the ‘calling out’ should have been framed as a request to the service user during the meeting with an acknowledgement that a mistake was made by not announcing it at the start of the meeting.

But really, the two should get over themselves and figure out what is more important...getting results or putting up with something they find distasteful.

@bigchocfrenzy- it wasn't a visitor it was the hospital manager and consultant. They should be aware of the rule. Any visitors are service users friends/family who are aware they use e-cigs. It also isn't an usual rule - all the hospitals in the group have the same policy. The majority of service users are smokers but of course it could arise. It would be possible to stipulate a space with no e-cigs allowed but there is only one lounge so currently as all our service users are smokers it isn't an issue. However as I said it would be pretty to find a space without e-cigs and the rooms never have any noticable smoke or smell. Myself and other staff who don't smoke/vape don't find it horrendous atall

They should
Not have called out a service user in the meeting

But I’m flabbergasted that ecigs are allowed at all. As dependent as some people might be, the facility has a responsibility to not allow others to be exposed

@cabbageking - service users aren't working
@Puzzledandpissedoff - it's awful
@BigChocFrenzy - we only have 12 patients and usually 8 staff. Service users have to charge their e-cigs in the office. But yes, I know every service user and spend time with them while they are using their e-cigs. Would someone be able to speak up? I don't know as I've not come across the situation.

@PencilsInSpace - yes you're right - but it so happens that all our e-cig users are smokers too.

@FormerlyFrikadela01- we have a vending machine too. None of our service users have used them to self harm but if they did it would be dealt with as an individual matter rather than a blanket ban.

I wouldn't expect anyone to be using a e-cig or other whilst working.
It's not very professional sorry.

The person using the e-cig was NOT working.

@PencilsInSpace after a bit of googling I can see that e-cigs do, in fact, use a vaping mechanism so I stand corrected and have slapped my own wrists.

@FormerlyFrikadela01 - I don't agree - it is their home for years. But obviously they share it with everyone so compromise has to be made like keeping quiet after 10. But currently we have all smokers so no issue there.

@Notmyfirstusername - our service users are here for a few/many years. They have long-term treatment plans that they have to follow so won't get discharged earlier by saying/doing certain things except perhaps when discharge is coming up. We have a high staff ratio so are fully aware who smokes/vapes. I take your point that it could be difficult if a rare non-smoker/vaper came onto the ward so maybe there should be some spaces/times with no e-cigs allowed.

@Notmyfirstusername - as for the staff - I would say most don't smoke but there are quite a few smokers. I'm an ex-smoker and don't vape. I have never really noticed any smoke and very little smell from the e-cigs

@Purpleartichoke - the thing is not long ago cigarettes were allowed on the ward - this is a big step down from that and much healthier for our service users.

@Purpleartichoke - and dealing with an upset service user who can't smoke and then on top can't use an e-cig is distressing to staff and service users. The ban on smoking was hard enough for most service users let alone taking away an e-cig too.

@StrawberryShortbread2001 I take the point of those who advocate non-vaping areas in case you get service users who dislike it in future, but as regards "speaking up" I'd be more worried for now about the reluctance to address the issue of a consultant shutting service users down

I get how difficult this can be (and presumably the OT who spoke up later felt the same) but after all there's absolutely no need for anyone to be rude or unpleasant. Surely this is something that could be discussed at a meeting which doesn't involve the service users?

Everywhere I know treats e vigs & vaping the same as cigarettes & smoking meaning it's not allowed on the premises.
Totally reasonable imo, the effects of vaping are not fully known yet.
As non smoker I find cigs and vaping as obnoxious as cigarettes and would speak up if someone thought it was ok in a meeting.

@Puzzledandpissedoff - yes, agree. It was the hospital manager not the consultant who shuts service users down. I have no reluctance to speak up about that issue but as a support worker I have little power. Hopefully the more senior staff will deal with it.

If other organizations and businesses ban e-cigs, so should hospitals IMHO. I'm amazed that anyone would consider this to be ok

In my experience it's when the premises are considered to be someone's home which, in a secure unit, the ward is. When my brother was in a secure unit they were not allowed to smoke in their rooms but had a designated smoking room. Actual cigarettes not just vapes. E cigarettes are allowed on the ward , for clients who are not allowed to leave.

you are unreasonable to expect sensible opinions based on reading your clear posts about anything relating to anything remotely connected to smoking in these forums

Ain't that the truth

You'd think it possible for folk to address the issues OP's actually raised (or even just to read them) but no ... as so often it becomes an exercise in competitive outrage

as a support worker I have little power. Hopefully the more senior staff will deal with it

Fingers crossed, Strawberry

@StripeyDeckchair - but you are talking about places where people go and if they want to use an e-cig they can just go outside or they can use it at home. Service users in a secure unit are not able to do that.

It would be fine if you spoke up at the beginning of the meeting but not in the middle of it to tell someone not to do something that it has been agreed they can do.

Service users are still in a public place however much you argue it is their lounge

But if they're not allowed out of it. . I think their wishes take precedence.

@YummyChipCurryDip - about 3 years ago cigarettes were allowed here on the balcony.
I'm suprised noone has mentioned staff having to passive smoke actual cigarette smoke which is much more dangerous than e-cig smoke (as far as we know).

I fail to see how any sensible person would contemplate going into a meeting, whether professionals or not, with an e cigarette

An in patient in a secure psychiatric unit is probably not at the top of their game sensible-wise