Were they rude? Or am I over-thinking it?

[zingally]

This concerns my older sister and her fiancée. She is late 30s, he is mid-40s, and both are on the autistic spectrum but not officially diagnosed, but both live independently, hold down good jobs etc. Sister openly admits she's on the spectrum and understands she sees the world differently. Her fiancée doesn't/can't/won't acknowledge it, and his poor behaviours/social mis-steps are always someone else's fault.

For Christmas, I asked my mum to make me up a hamper of foody bits as my present. She did as requested. Went to a lot of trouble to decorate a box nicely and filled it up with a mixture of food items, household bits, and a couple of jokey items that she wrapped up. I really enjoyed looking through the hamper, unwrapping the bits and bobs and it was just nice all-round. It was just mum and I for Christmas day, so sister and fiancée didn't see my reaction to the hamper.

A few days later, sister and fiancée turn up, and mum has done a hamper for them as well. They hadn't asked for it, but neither of them told mum what they wanted, so she just did the same as she did me.

They both sat down on the floor to open it, mum hovering over them expectantly, expecting a bit of a pleased fuss, like I'd made.

Sister was virtually silent, fiancée just went, "Oh, sponges, I've got loads of them." They spent maybe a minute poking through it, didn't say thank you, and then just went back to their seats on the sofa. Mum looked a bit disappointed, but didn't say anything.

My question is, would I be wrong to say anything to my sister like, "did you thank mum for the hamper?" I just know that mum put a lot of work into it, and their response was underwhelmed, bordering cold.

I KNOW they're both autistic, and social norms pass them by a lot of the time, but they're reasonably functioning, established adults, and SHOULD know how to behave appropriately to a gift that someone has obviously put time and effort into. But is it my place to raise it with them? I know the answer is probably "not your problem", but I'm very protective of mum (more so since my dad died in 2017) and hate seeing her disappointed by my sister.

There is more to unpick, like I feel that my sister hasn't pulled her weight in supporting mum since dad died, or while he was ill in the year before he passed. And I totally see that is a contributory factor as to why I'm cross about something like a Christmas hamper. It's a little bit the final straw in a long like of annoyances!

If someone isn't diagnosed, who decides they're "on the spectrum"?

Dr Google? For adults, that is.

Weird and confusing gift but of course they should have thanked your mother.
Then again, just because they didn't behave as YOU thought they should doesn't mean you should interfere. You need to leave it

As a possible said, if they don't have a dx, how do you/they know they're on the spectrum? I know there are online tests and plenty of literature out there, but showing some or even all of the symptoms does not = a dx.

Pp, not possible.

Maybe use it as an excuse to have a chat to your sis and her df to explain that your mum really wanted to give them something that they would enjoy and find useful for Christmas but that they didn’t give her any ideas so in the end she thought she would do the same as she did for you. You saw that they were surprised and not happy with the gift which was upsetting for everyone, so that they need to realise that it came from a place of love (and desperation!).

However it would have been better to ask for something they actually wanted and if there wasn’t anything in particular then maybe just asking for a contribution to something they are saving for or a voucher to a shop or restaurant etc they both like would be a good idea. And throw in that your mum likes to give them something to actually have too so to ask for a box of their favourite chocs or coffee etc and to expect a funny something that made her smile and she is hoping will make them smile too. That way come next year everyone will be happy!

I actually feel a bit sorry for your sister, expecting her to be enthused about a frankly quite bizarre gift that you wanted, not her.
Just as your sister should know to smile and say thank you for a gift, your mum should also know that a gift of sponges is likely to provoke a less than enthused reaction from someone.
People always say it’s the thought of a gift that counts... well it sounds like your mum didn’t really think about what your sister would like at all. She bought her what you would like.

If she has made it to her 30ties and is still failling on grasping those more formalized social norms and she does not have a diagnosis, then her family have let her down massively all trough her chidlhood by not putting the extra effort in that it takes to bring up a child with AS to fit into the so called 'normal' society.

OR:
She is not on the spectrum and her behaviour has other reasons.

(DGM, DF, DB, DS and DN on the spectrum - for all of them getting a gift has been / is a problem.)

NiffleTime I didn't realise. As someone who knows very little about autism I found Atypical very educational about how people with autism react in different situations. What is it that the critics dislike about it?

I totally relate to your situation OP - had my sister stay for Christmas and have strong suspicions she is on the spectrum although not diagnosed, she definitely has traits that make me think this. She is my older sister but everyone assumes l am the older one because of how she is. I feel like l have to look after her even though she has a job etc. She is very blunt with things so l figure that is the way she talks to people, she wouldn't bat an eyelid if l spoke to her like it so l would def tell her she came across as ungrateful x

I’m not autistic so even though it sounds like a boring (to me) present I would obviously smile and say thank you. Because it’s expected of me. People with autism don’t think that way. My son is 8 and if he doesn’t like something he’s received it will show. He’s not being rude he can’t help it. I will always prompt him to say thank you (which he will in a flat, bored voice usually) as I am his mother and manners are important. He forgets to say thank you sometimes when he is happy with his present because he’s excited so when reminded will fling himself at the gift giver for a thank you cuddle.

Your sister is an adult. She’s received her present already and apparently didn’t say thank you. What difference will it make to your mum if you prompt your sister to say thank you now? I get it wrong with my son sometimes and get no thanks. I chalk it up to experience and resolve to try something different next time, shit happens.

If your aim is genuinely to boost your mum and help your sibling respond more appropriately then it's a good idea. If you're genuine you'll find the way to do it nicely, if not, then leave it. Speaking from mum point of view - my dd has been known to nudge ds in the right direction and it generally is a positive thing

Presumably if they hold down successful jobs without problems they must have some awareness of social acceptable behaviour I would imagine, although I could be wrong.
My two year old said thank you to her grandparents for presents at christmas. I dont think she understands it but she knows it's something you say nicely if someone gives you something. Could the same rule not apply? I would think its ok to point it out from the point if view that even if you dont understand it, it's the correct thing to always smile and say thank you for the effort and the gift.

Perhaps they were wondering if the household gifts and groceries were a NT's attempt at a dig on their finances or their cleanliness, and felt like not saying anything was the safest option and the polite thing to do?

I am autistic and most of my family are on the spectrum as well and I/they know to say/sign thank you for gifts, even if they're unwanted or not something they like. Throwaway comments like the sponges one may have been hurtful but were likely said thoughtlessly not out of malice. At their age they should have said thank you and autism isn't an excuse. It's just bad manners.

It sounds like bad manners rather than autism

OP here:

Just wanted to point out, it wasn't just a hamper of sponges! There was one bath sponge, for washing yourself with. :) Everything else was things like biscuits, drinks, chocolates, and a couple of magazines mum knows DSis and fiancée are interested in (trains).

As for the "how do you know they're autistic, without a dr diagnosis?" There's a whole lot more family stuff there, I'd rather not go into on a public space, but please just take my word for it. They are, and they know they are. Even - as it is in his case - he doesn't really understand what it is or how it shows itself in him.

Thank you for all the comments though. I think I will just let this go. I can see that getting a present you hadn't asked for may have been confusing to them in the moment, which I hadn't really considered previously.

And to those of you who asked, mum had (and always does) repeatedly ask them, in the months leading up to birthdays and Christmas, what they would like, and the answer is always, "I don't know". NOT, "I don't want anything", which is different. "I don't know" implies they do want gifts, but don't know what.

I really, really DO get it, that being neurodivergent is really f-ing hard and confusing a LOT of the time. But as a neurotypical empath, it's also hard to deal with seeing the hurt feelings and disappointment when the interaction doesn't quite work (and that goes both ways). I just feel like I'm always the one filling the gaps and doing the smoothing over, while DSis and fiancée just merrily carry on. It's hard work, and I do get emotionally tired of it. I also get that if mum is upset, she needs to deal with that herself. She won't, but that's not my problem. I'm actively working on letting that go and letting her adult her own way through issues with sister. I can't do everything, and I'm not my sister's keeper.

I assume your mum knows your sister very well and understands her reactions to things.

I worked with a man who I now suspect was autistic. He could be incredibly rude. It made me angry for many years until a Colleague whose child was autistic pointed out the many similarities and while she didn’t diagnose him she explained how she responded to and adjusted for her child. It made it much easier.

I suspect you are right about misplaced anger. It’s too late to get your sister to step up, she want there for you, your mum or your dad.

I would let the Christmas present thing go, you aren’t going to change how they manage social interactions.

Sorry about your Dad💐

I think they should have been prompted to say thanks, as it’s the socially acceptable thing to do (even if you don’t love the present).
However, the present sounds slightly odd; sponges? I would struggled to show enthusiasm for these tbh. Also it’s a gift you specifically asked for, not your sister, so she may not have had the same level of appreciation for it anyway?

I'm actively working on letting that go and letting her adult her own way through issues with sister. I can't do everything, and I'm not my sister's keeper.

This is the healthiest approach for all. If it's a known dynamic you just have to swerve the odd moments as not ideal but not worth creating a bigger issue over. Don't be tempted to overcompensate your mum resilience is a good quality to nurture.

Difficult one but I’d give your sister a prompt.

My mum, sister and brother are all on the spectrum (mum not officially diagnosed but my siblings are. My sister being more severe than my brother) and even they know to say thank you for a gift and they are in their 30s...

If we accept that everything an autistic person thinks, says, feels or experiences comes from an autistic mind then you are being not only unreasonable but also quite disrespectful to them. Your mother I assume knows her daughter has autism so therefore has to accept that is how they are and no matter how much theySHOULD know to project social manners doesn’t mean in the moment that they will. This is my experience of having an autistic child and while sometimes they exclude manners other times they don’t. That is no reflection on their values or instilled manners but of being autistic.
I’m quite sad that others think their behaviour is “disgraceful

Even a 4 year old understands:
Get a gift -> Smile, give hug and say thank you.

A smile and a thank you, yes. Don’t force children to hug if they don’t want to.

Sister and nephew both diagnosed with autism. Both understand to say thank you. Sister is more convincing than nephew (can mimic social cues more) but nephew remembers he needs to do it (sometimes with a gentle prompt).

However - what works in our family is no huge surprises. If I got my sister a hamper I think she would look totally perplexed by the gift until she recovered herself and pretended to like it for a moment. Nephew would probably say "why did you buy that?".

It's really difficult for autistic people to fake things sometimes. There are things you can do as a family to ease the situation. Some acceptance and gentle reminders are fine and appropriate.

In my opinion. Not that you can say all autistic people are the same.

They sound rude.