Cyprus is no longer a safe place for (young, single) women to holiday?

[Kraai]

The teen went back to her ONS's room for consensual sex. When there, 11 of his mates burst in and filmed while three of them then raped her. She went to the police and reported it. They were detained. They said it was consensual and was "with love" (I kid you not!). She was interviewed at length with no legal representation and the police decided she was lying. She was then charged with the crime of making up a crime and has been unable to come home since the summer. The guys were all allowed to return to Israel where some of them have since said things indicating she wasn't lying at all and I'm pretty sure the video was shared (from memory, which may be wrong). She's had psychological evaluation saying she's suffering badly from PTSD.

It's worth noting that the Cyprus is a very popular destination for young Israelis to let off steam before they start national service and there's a strong political tie between the two.

So, AIBU to say that Cyprus is no longer a safe destination for young woman? If the worst happens to you and you report it and the police think you're not a credible witness, YOU will end up in jail. Knowing how traumatic reporting something like a stolen wallet in a foreign police station can be, the idea that a woman would be interviewed without legal representation in a state of severe distress, however that manifests, and then not believed and charged means that men have been given free rein to rape in Cyprus. Especially if it's in a potential "grey zone".

https://www.bbc.com/news/videoandd_audio/headlines/50944483/cyprus-rape-claim-case-it-s-a-very-worrying-conviction

Men rape. Its what they do.

All the more reason to put some proper effort and resources into controlling and policing men, the actual problem, rather than women.

Many things we don't like are a fact of life. The good thing about being human is we can act to control, reduce, mitigate or sometimes even eradicate present facts of life we are not prepared to live with.

But it takes hard work and hard truths, so someone who is prepared to live with them probably won't bother.

When did I say otherwise?

When did I say otherwise?

Who are you talking to?

I'd never go to Dubai. Another place that is not safe. Too risky IMHO. Google Detained in Dubai.

I agree people will still visit countries with appalling human rights records. Opinion may be divided about what is the best way to engage or change their systems.

However, as a potential tourist one of my aims is not to go to a country where the legal system is so corrupt it could see me facing bogus charges or being punished as a victim of crime. I hope sane people will avoid these places.

'Men rape. Its what they do. Youre living in a liberal dreamworld utopia if you think otherwise'

And people say it's feminists who generalise about men

Saying rape is a fact of life doesn’t mean it’s right or unchangable but that unfortunately it is inescapable, there is nothing and nowhere protective. I’ve worked with victims of sexual violence and it occurs across all social boundaries - married women, gay men, drunk teenagers, mothers who popped to the shops, sex workers, those inpatients in MH units, wealthy businessmen and women. It’s a horrible sickening reality, this time of year my old place of work (a SARC) will have been so busy.

It should be different. But rape has sadly always existed, pretending it’s rare does a huge disservice to survivors.

There's a march for justice on Sunday 6th January.
It starts at 12pm outside the Cypriot embassy.
The information is on The Gemini Project Facebook and twitter.

If rape is a fact of life then you’re pretty much agreeing that the balance of probability is on this girl’s side, yes?

We can leave exactly what women and girls should do about that to another thread. Personally I think we should have our own nation and territory set up somewhere.

Neither did I say anyting of that sort, ImGoing.

None of you can actually tell me why that statement bothers you, or what I actually mean, so you're putting words in my mouth.

None of you can actually tell me why that statement bothers you, or what I actually mean

I’m still not entirely sure who you are talking to, but assuming I am one of your “you”...

On why the statement “rape is a fact of life” bothers me (though that’s a rather weak word given that we are talking about rape; it “concerns” me at the very least), as Orange say above, saying something is a fact of life can mean that nothing can be done, or it can mean it’s very common. I agree with the second sentiment but not the first as I think a hell of a lot could be done if we turn society’s focus on stopping men raping. Moreover, not only do I disagree with the first sentiment, I think it actively works against the second. I actually thought I’d been pretty clear about that but I don’t mind saying it again. I will say it for as long as I think it needs to be said.

I have no idea if your “fact of life” is closer to the first or the second meaning. Either way, the point is worth making.

As to telling you what you ”actually mean”, I’m not sure why you think that’s anyone’s job but your own, but if no one has understood your point you probably didn’t express yourself very well, so maybe try again?

I won’t be going back to Cyprus in my lifetime and it’s not just because of this appalling case. It’s just not set up as a holiday destination, power cuts, limited water, the pools aren’t clean because no one gives a shit about cleaning the pumps, the roads barely exist on the northern side. Let alone the fact that women aren’t safe, it’s a dive.

I believe her

I saw on This Morning a report about the Beast of Kavos (Greek island of Corfu a major holiday destination) - a local man known as jimmy the rapist by all the local bar owners who knew for years what he was doing - this man was eventually jailed for 50 years for attacking many many women in terrible ordeals (a holiday rep was raped repeatedly by him in woods where he held her captive for 14 hours)- he has now been released after serving only 7 years!The This Morning team found him back in Kavos working in the bars, they questioned the local govt about why he was released and I don't think they got any answers.
I'm glad This Morning run segments like this as it never got near the tv news to bring to our attention the dangers and very poor law enforcement abroad.
Never going to Corfu.

I won’t be going back to Cyprus in my lifetime and it’s not just because of this appalling case. It’s just not set up as a holiday destination, power cuts, limited water, the pools aren’t clean because no one gives a shit about cleaning the pumps, the roads barely exist on the northern side. Let alone the fact that women aren’t safe, it’s a dive

I've been a regular visitor to the Southern side for over ten years. Love the place. Clean pools and roads as good as in the UK. I've never experienced any shortage of water or a power cut. Where have you been going?

firstly, I am answering this as criminal defence lawyer (FCILEx). I am, as a British (Manchester based) lawyer, not an expert on Cypriot law. However, Cyprus is internationally respected as having a robust, fair and entirely reliable system of policing and criminal justice.

You are the mother of an accused person. The person in question is accused of an offence which under British law would amount to perverting the course of justice.

Your version of events make this situation sound dreadful. You are the mother of this person - and presumably also takes as fact her version of events. I am not psychic. All I can say is that entirely false and indeed superfluous allegations of a sexual nature are brought with a regularity and commonality which would shock most.

Ultimately, she has been accused of a crime against public justice by a country which is an EU member state, which has a democratically elected government and in which a proper legal defence and a public trail are the right of everyone.

I wouldn't seek to speculate on what has happened here too much as I simply couldn't say. I would say that in the UK perverting charges should be brought in such circumstances far more than they are, for political reasons ultimately.

That's a brave post on MN.

All I can say is that entirely false and indeed superfluous allegations of a sexual nature are brought with a regularity and commonality which would shock most.

As you say you’re not psychic, so you cannot say what is “entirely false” as you’ve no idea; and as a defence lawyer you have a vested interest in believing that.

The most thorough piece of research into false claims was overseen by Keir Starmer when he was DPP.

This found that the “misplaced belief" that false accusations of rape and da are common were undermining police and prosecutors' efforts to investigate these offences.

The study by the CPS in 2013 found that over the test period of 17 months, during which all false allegation cases were referred to the DP, there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for da in Eng & Wales.

During that time there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, 6 for false allegations of da and 3 for false allegations of both rape and da combined.

Starmer’s concluded:

"Victims of rape and domestic violence must not be deterred from reporting the abuse they have suffered”...”We have worked hard to dispel the damaging myths and stereotypes which are associated with these cases.”

@sony I assume you mean you're a FILEX of Eng & Wales rather than British - given that you are highly unlikely to be qualified to act in Scotland and NI? And I say that as a solicitor qualified in E&W.

I assume you don't do any international work so on what basis are you saying you're certain the Cypriot justice system is reliable? On the basis that it is in the EU?

I don't believe for a second that sonyabf is actually a lawyer. If they are they have demonstrated an astonishing lack of critical thinking.

Sorry sonyabf, but if you are a lawyer then I’m going to assume your the personal claims ambulance chasing kind given you’re apparent ignorance of the actual facts and figures behind false reporting on sexual offences.
And you honesty think that this case is an good example of the ‘robust’ Cypriot legal system?

I just went to the Cyprus Tourist Board site to send an email saying that this case would stop me and most people I know from considering Cyprus as a holiday destination. Their site is down which prompted me to look up the Cypriot Embassy. I'd say its definitely worth a quick email, it will help them understand how bad this has been for their image as a tourist destination.

cyprusinuk.com/contact-us/

I'd be really interested in being directed to these stats which show that false allegations are shockingly common. Research suggests it's as low as 4% of all allegations received in the UK and between 2-4% in the US and Europe.

Also @sony as a defence lawyer, surely you're concerned about the failure by the court to hear any evidence regarding the rape allegations which were apparently false. Doesn't the apparent omissions to retain evidence by the police concern you? I mean, as a defence lawyer, these are certainly the actions / omissions I'd be relying on to question the reliability of the conviction.

What about convicting solely on a confession? I know from my uni days that confessions aren't always a reliable way to convict particularly not one that was allegedly coerced from the defendant by police.

Do Cyprus have an equivalent of PACE?

This idea of false allegations being widespread and common is so damaging and just undermines those who are brave enough to come forward in the first place. What a horrible attitude to have. There is so much about this case that demonstrates the legal process has not been fair or robust, but sure @sonyabf let’s victim blame some more.

I'll clarify a few things about the position I took with this.

(@kirinm - of course, that's absolutely correct. I used the word British in describing my nationality and the country I live in mainly as a way of clarifying I have no links to Cyrus. It's of course true that I couldn't work in Scotland or NI, as indeed you also couldn't. Perhaps it's a distinction I should have made but I suppose I didn't really see it as relevant to the post.)

I am not taking a view on things I couldn't possibly know. I said I'm not psychic and the truth of what has and hasn't happened in this case is something no one on this thread could possibly know. We have been given one side of the story. That side of the story, as I said, sounds dreadful. Nonetheless, it is one side of the story. The points I made we're in general terms and not really supposed to comment directly upon this situation. The points I made in general however I stand by fully. I realise that MN is not going to receive those kind of comments well. In full and frank disclosure of my own potential biases, I naturally look at things from a criminal defence point of view and since I deal with quite a lot sexual allegations and very few (actually non personally) cases of perverting justice, perhaps my own predisposition to defend the former clouded my view. We all have bias, everyone here does. I would still reiterate my original points with the disclaimer I'm not passing any judgment on this particular case.

@Bishybarnybee Thanks for the link.