to imagine recklessly that a 'self-catering' holiday will be anything other than forced labour for me now I am a Mum?

[Verso]

You can all pat me on the head now and say 'there, there', with the voice of experience.

Forgive me - DD is only two, so it's still a shock to find that the concept of 'holiday' now applies to her and DH only. When did the rules change? No one showed me the paperwork!

I will learn, no doubt!

Ooh, but I was (am?) bitter . Can anyone empathise?

Yes, and before we married my husband always said if one of us ever had to give up work it would be him (he's a teacher). Mind you now I'm divorced I have to do everything but that's a different issue and wasn't the case in the 19 years we were married.

On being with teenagers it depends on the children. My daughters in particular liked meeting other children and teenagers on holiday very much indeed and in fact are still coming on holidays with us now they're at university because they are holidays they like. My son isn't so bothered about that and now the children are all older I don't need a break in the day with some childcare which I always did with under 5s just so I felt I Had time to read, relax, sail, walk etc. In fact last week the twins didn't go in the kid's club once although they could have done had they chosen to.

I think in response to the OP all holidays are pretty rubbish when your children are small. My children are pretty ordinary, but they have always flourished better in an environment which is closer to home and their usual regime - they may grow up to be sophisticated, flexible and devil may care, but they certainly weren't at 1-3.

When they were very small we always stayed in the UK - I honestly can't think of anything worse for me than flying with 2 toddlers and 2/3 suitcases to last 4 of us 2 weeks. We've always gone for cottages with as many home comforts as possible (dishwasher and washing machines/tumble dryers are non negotiable in my book). I'm also quite partial to dvd players, satellite telly and open fires (we are lucky that we can afford all this, but I can't believe that this is much more - if any more - expensive than a hotel plus flights). There are some very good rental websites with lots of places like this in the UK. Now the children are slightly older (3 and 5) we've gone as far as France.

I hadn't really pondered the "helpful DH" side of it. Mine just is - he's sort of like a clone of me so its like having 2 of you doing everything. Plus we both love to cook, so nights in spending a long evening cooking, drinking wine, chatting, watching tv, reading with an open fire is one of the best bits of the holiday (particularly if you've got lots of French goodies from a local market that morning).

I think holidays more than anything bring home to new parents how life has changed as they compare them with holidays before children so they tend to bring out the worst in everyone. Divorce lawyers' most busy times are September and January.

Anna8888 £675 which is about what we paid is for a house for 6 of us, 3 adults and 3 children, with a garden and washing machine and living room and big kitchen etc.

So in your Greek hotel (very nice I'm sure) we would pay about 2000 euros for a week? What's that then, about £1200? For a hotel room? there's no compariosn for me, I'm afraid. I'm totally with Hula on this one.

A pal of mine is not long back from a week in the sun somewhere - in a hotel where she shared a room with her 2 dds - aged 5 and 2.5!! not my idea of fun. Not sure what her DH thought but I'm guessing he didn't get any {apols for lapse into crudity!}

WB, Xenia, you were missed .

Clary - we were three adults and five children and we had three rooms for a week and that cost 2135 euros. Obviously three adults is always a more difficult (and probably costly) room combination than adults in pairs . There was masses of space, by the way - our room had a huge private roof terrace. And the sun shone every day and all the children (5, 7, 9, 12) bar my daughter (2.9) could run off around the village on their own so that gave them and us lots of freedom - we didn't have to get up to make them breakfast, we just gave them 5 euros to go to the village and buy it for themselves. And they could go to the pool on their own too. We certainly didn't feel an oppressive presence of other tourists (this was a very small island, quite hard to get to, with absolutely no industrial tourism), yet the children met other children and could do stuff on their own and we as adults didn't have to look after them nearly as much as at home here in Paris.

Anchovy - we've been on holiday eight times this year so far so obviously we don't think holidays with small children are rubbish at all . In fact, I love them.

It's basically no different to being at home but with different wallpaper. And appliances that you can't work because they are old and have no instructions. This year because we are so broke we decided that we'd make a picnic and take it with us everyday - with 5 of us buying lunch was too much especially as we intended to go out for evening meals more often. DH nodded blithely to this before we left home but then started on the 'oh don't worry, we'll just get something while we're out' business fairly soon. Because it was his turn to make the sarnies . Another DH-classic was his reaction to lack of a washing machine "well you can have a break then can't you" - oblivious to the week long pile of washing that would be sitting on the kitchen floor when we got home. Oh yes.. a lovely break

However we do eat out a lot in the evenings and self-catering is so much simpler than hotels with children. And when it all gets too much I confort myself with the though that at least we aren't camping

I point blank refused to go on a sc hol this year. Last year was a nightmare, dh off doing his own thing whilst I looked after dd (1) and dsd (10). dd couldnt even walk and dsd isn't a 'joiner' so I spent the waking hours from 0530 till 2200 entertaining, cooking, cleaning and the like. It was made even worse by the heatwave (over 100 every day) that meant dd had to be inside between 11 and 4 daily. It was a bloody nightmare that culminated in me telling dh on the plane back that he was packing his bags the second we got home! (I relented when I realised that dsd's mum was still away herself so without dh I would have another busy week to contend with). I swear I sulked for the rest of the year.

This year we went to a First Choice All Inclusive in the Canaries. It was heaven. The accommodation was an apartment: 2 beds, living room, kitchenette and enclosed patio. There were 3 snack bars and 3 restaurants so rigid timings weren't an issue - plus with the kitchenette I did cook a couple of times (although only sausage mash and beans!). dsd was 'ordered' to join the swimming club (!) dd went to creche which means I spent a whole 2 hours EVERY day doing NOTHING. Dh was still useless, but at least this time I got some 'me' time and EVERYONE was happier. I even got a tan, which wasn't possible last year!

It cost us £1200 for all 4, so not cheap but bloody well worth the money (and actually we found out later that we could have got it cheaper - one couple booked the week before they flew and only paid £600)

Roll on next year - I cant wait!

DH and I have been doing SC holidays in the UK with our twins since they were 16 months old. We go with either Haven or Hoseason where we stay in a chalet or lodge which we use as a base to do our own thing which is mainly visiting villages, castles, country parks and the beach.

DH cooks half the meals, prepares all the sandwiches for our picnics, bathes and changes the boys (now 3yo), makes the bed and is fastidious about tidying up in the evening. He has always been like this and he finds it bewildering that a lot of men do not do more domestically.

I have more of a break than he does.

Btw, I wasn't saying that self-catering itself is the problem - I actually like cooking . It was more the complete lack of 'down' time that meant it wasn't a holiday for me at all. I think JoshandJamie summed it up nicely with the idea that you're always 'on' once you become a Mum. I will revise my expectations for next year and probably have a much better time.

There have been some great suggestions on this thread for alternatives to the standard cottage in the UK, although some might need some serious saving-up-for! Thanks, everyone.

How to actually enjoy a holiday with very young children (under 4)

1 Pick an aparthotel type place - so you can cook a few basic things if the kids are tired and being difficult with all the eating out but that gets cleaned regularly and you have the facilities of a hotel

2 Bring a DVD player with some kids
dvds and also some dvds you might want to watch for the evenings when the dcs are too tired to go out with you.

3 A husband/partner who takes turns for lie ins and who does his share (or in my case one who does more than his share ).

4 Lastly - but most important of all (especially if you have an only child)- go somewhere where there are other children so that the dcs can play with others. If at all possible go with friends with other similar aged children or other family members who can share the childcare (although the odd teenager or two is good too if they are willing to do a bit of pool side watching in return for going out money that evening)

1 is admitedly easier to find abroad which means you need to endure the flights etc but tbh although I find the packing and travelling bit awful as long as I have the other things on my list I generally manage to have a good time.

S/C holidays in the UK are bearable but only if it doesn't chuck down with rain every day. One week on the Isle of Man with a 2 year old on a lovely farm but with no other children and driving rain almost every day was enough to convince me never to try that again as my main holiday. I can only describe it as awful and came back so exhausted and resentful it was most definitely not a holiday and this was with a dh who did loads - it was all done 50/50 but was still awful.

Lazycow - completely agree on the weather issue. Rain ruins a holiday IMO.

Which is why I always go to places with guaranteed sunshine. The horrible journey is a worthwhile sacrifice if there is guaranteed sunshine and a lovely place at the end of it

Hi Verso. Family holidays are a complete shock to the system, aren't they?

To be honest, self-catering is the only sensible option with small children. Hotels just don't work. I mean what are you supposed to do in the evenings. Sit in a hotel bedroom trying to make no noise? Go downstairs and risk them waking up? No, self-catering is the best answer. It does mean, unfortunately, that you don't get too much of a break. But go out for lots of meals, get lots of easy stuff in, take lots of wine and once they've gone to bed you do get to relax.

The destinations on family holidays are such a shock to the system too. No more trekking in Vietnam or whitewater rafting in Zambia or whatever intrepid thing may have taken your fancy. Time to experience a different sort of holiday and holiday destination.

In extremis, console yourself with the thought that after 16 years or so, the children won't want to come on holiday with you. Sorry if that's not much consolation .

I think the weather might have had a lot to do with the OP's disappointment. We had rain every day on our much longed for beach hoiday in Britain this year. Did not get to the beach once as it was blowing a gale. Spent a fortune entertaining everyone and eating out. Imagined an old fashioned seaside holiday but the reality was so disappointing. We did feel we had worked hard all year, and for what?

Oh, and EVERYONE else had TWO glorious weeks in Spain, Portugal, France...

Yes, Sherbert - the rain didn't help. Seven days of driving rain and then the morning we were packing to leave (truly) the sun came out . Got to see the beach once - the day we arrived, for a ten-minute recce before dinner bath and bed - and it rained the rest of the week.

(Btw am not a sit-on-the-beach-sunbathing type, but was really looking forward to paddling and doing sandcastles etc w DD )

I think it helps if you have some "down time" as someone said below, without the children. I also think there's a huge difference between having under 5s and older children. We had a good week at Butlins once when the children were 6 weeks, 1 and 3 and put all 3 in the creche for an hour or two each day. It doesn't all have to be expensive Mark Warner/Sunsail type things, although I know which I prefer, even if you want some childcare help.

We also went away for a week when I was pregnant and the older children were 1 and 3 but I think we missed them too much and didn't repeat that. They stayed at home with their nanny and grandparents.

Last year we went to the Hotel Costa Canaria on Gran Canaria in April. It is a 5* hotel, set in large very pretty gated gardens (all residents have a card key) that lead onto the beach, it's own pool, tennis courts, mini spa etc. I had a daily massage. It was quite old fashioned, frequented mainly by large, well heeled, Spanish families (aged 9 - 90 sort of thing). It worked brilliantly with children. It sounds tacky but the children all had siestas then dressed up and dined with their families in the restaurant in the evening. Afterwards all the children danced to the Macarena (and other eurobeat songs). It worked brilliantly. We even bought the Macarena DVD when we came home . I would go there again, definitely.

my eldest just turned 7 (other one is 4) and I am still struggling to have holidays that include ME (as other than unpaid au pair), now the problem is SCHOOL.

School turns "vacations" into "OMG what will I do with them for x weeks?". I've had some really stinking rows at work this year over summer and September too (staff settling offsping into new schools). I've so far used up all mine and dhs leave, mostly separately (so much for our marriage), worn out the elderly grandparents and made thorough use of all 3 uncle/aunties (one disabled) and one great-aunt and uncle. We have flown to Ireland twice, and the US Midwest (dh twice) on packed planes and horrendous airports, all top of the "worst" lists (chicago O'Hare and Heathrow, Dublin is dire too). I have spend thousands of pounds on airfares. The Midwest was so hot and humid, the kids refused to do anything outdoors!

I really really tried to enjoy it, and expect all the extra work - but still I'm saying never again, must be a better way. These ideas here are good all right-but I guess my point it, the goalpoasts keep moving and not in the right direction so far!

Just one tale to add....

a few years back with 2 YO and 4 month old, we opted for a week at a "child-friendly" hotel in Cornwall so we could have a week off cooking etc and use the babysitting/listening service and spend our evenings in the bar/entertainment....

Sounds great but...

that was 6 years ago, and cost us around £700 for the week...

We got there to find the "family suite" was just around the corner from the rear fire exit, the latch on the room door was in reach of our 2 yo and we couldn't deadlock it so he would be out at the first opportunity.... and could get straight out onto the main road.

The family suite was also a nightmare for anybody with toddlers - the kettle for making tea etc was at toddler height, the internal doorways were a non std width that our travel gates wouldn't fit - basically I've never stayed anywhere so unsafe for a toddler...

THe babysitting was at best baby listening, with somebody checking the internal phone line (with the phone off the hook), and the kids club would only take 3 and above, so we had no choice but to keep the kids with us at all times...even when having dinner.

Now most people with kids appreciate that babies do sometimes cry.... but not the hotel owner... part way through the week we were asked to leave the restaurant cos my 4 month old was crying (not at her loudest I might add!) and it "might" disturb other guests - nobody had actually complained but....

Add to that the fact that 2 YO went on hunger strike mid week as he didn't like the hotel food....

Not surprising we've never tried a holiday like that again, and I certainly wouldn't recommend the hotel to anyone....

We generally go self catering for main holidays now both in the UK and abroad - especially since we bought a touring caravan, though we do take the kids to travel inns and the like for weekends occasionally - they work really well once you are past the bottles/sterilising stage - the one in Edinburgh we stayed at was more than happy have the kids in the bar at night, and to get the kids drinks of milk at the bar too.

yeah well, you should be me, my DD is on a romantic holiday with her boyfriend and i wont probably get another holiday for the next, oh i dont know, sixty years - grrrrrr.

Our DD2 is 2 and i sat in the garden yesterday and made myself and DP feel better by saying, well its just as well we cant afford a holiday because there is no one to have DD2 and it would be a nightmare to take her, and not really that fair on her either i suspect.

Nup, staying at home.

Can really relate to Xenias post there though.

Self catering.... not a chance!

I heard there are some cottages where there are maids that come to tidy up and you can order your eve meal....

anyone heard of those or have i just dreamt it?

If you like it ....enjoy it!

You can definitely rent cottages or villas with cleaning help (even full maid service). Don't know about the evening meal, though, because we always like to be in a village so that the children have somewhere to go without us - and we all like going out together in the evening to eat.

We did a catered chalet holiday at Easter but we didn't like the food so won't go with that company again. The chalet girl said she'd never known guests eat as little as we did

Yes, I have been trying to avoid self catering-which for me represents all the housework that I hate, plus the stuff my cleaner normally does for me while I am at the office, transported to somewere smaller and less convenient.

We have saved money by using friends and family's places, which are just more SC in a way-but these are in fact even worse, you feel you need to leave them spotless and "perfect" or you will let your friends/auntie down.