What are the main identifiers of those who describe themselves as lower middle classes?

[Rosehip10]

As distinct from middle/upper middle.

"Everyone should care about inequality in this country.

The class system perpetrates inequality."

Yes, of course, but denying that there is a class system also does that. People who say 'there are no classes any more' are perpetuating inequality, not the people who talk about the class system!

What right wing politicians want more than anything is for the working class and the lower middle class not to identify as a class.

I don't get the serviette / napkin thing, as I was brought up to think they were two different things. Napkin = cloth Serviette = paper.

Don't know what class that makes me, but maybe I'm just confused!

I don’t fit anywhere and never have.
Grandparents dirt poor working class. Father - defied his father and became a successful artist. This propropelled our family to leafy expensive villages and horses but not to the independently wealth of ‘money that makes money’ status of the middle class.

Who are these mysterious "Middle" Middle classes then? I can't quite get my head around them. Agree with PP that they def must exist, what jobs do they do?

They’re accountants, investment analysts, civil service, public sector, pharmacists, management consultants, etc. Their jobs are generally professional.

This propropelled our family to leafy expensive villages and horses but not to the independently wealth of ‘money that makes money’ status of the middle class.

You’re describing the upper class.

Barbara I can tell by the things they suggest for 'next steps', for what literature to read, for aspirations, for next schools etc. Accent isn't a factor- I live in a place with strong accents, and teachers often move far from home for university etc, lots aren't from this area.

Only on MN ... 7 pages of class signifiers.

On Christmas Eve!

Please note that this post is based mainly on extensive reading of golden age detective stories - but tbf there are worse sources to use.

The English class system is special in that it’s never about how much money you have. Your class follows you and will/would determine how others saw you and treated you. This is why the English class system is so famous and intrinsic. When we talk about class in other countries we have different frames of reference. I live in Sweden and we talk a lot about the “class journey” - your parents can be factory workers but the minute you go to university you’re moving away from working class here. It doesn’t work quite the same way in England afaiu.

I say English on purpose because I don’t think the class system was quite as easily applied in Scotland, I’m not sure about Wales but def not in Ireland either north or Republic. Different factors at play there, but I refer to my source material here.

That list about phrases used is thus more useful than ideas about money or degrees. Hyacinth Bucket and pretentiousness is about right. A desire to climb and being seen as “better”.

I do think the class system is changing though, perhaps mostly by people turning there back completely on the old system and maybe the celeb system is taking over?

@biviabi there is certainly elements of a class system in both parts of Ireland. Yes, there are other identities of course, but middle class etc definitely a thing.

You're totally missing the point. It's right wing politicians who want us to think that class no longer matters so that we won't fight for equality. It's not about what and pardon, it's about a person's life chances.

Not missing any point. Just have a different view point. I grew up in a communist country where it would never occur to anyone to feel above others due their coat, choice of word or style of house. That really does help social cohesion. Coupled with free university education and bursaries for poorer students, there’s a lot more social mobility. The government is not dominated by people who all went to the same school and there are prominent politicians who a bit less educated and not as articulate as some others. There is no eliticism in terms of different clubs needing you to be nominated to join or house prices being double because one area is perceived as being more ‘middle class’.

I honestly do think that if people tried to stop the oneupmanship over little things, it could gradually build up to a less divided society overall.

It's right wing politicians who want us to think that class no longer matters so that we won't fight for equality. It's not about what and pardon, it's about a person's life chances.

I agree that class matters but only because people believe in it and put people in boxes based on stereotypes. Class is based on wealth and stereotypes. People aren't inherently one thing or another behaviour-wise because of how much wealth they have, but lack of wealth does affect their lives.

Like gender is based on sex and stereotypes. Females aren't inherently one thing or another behaviour-wise but their sex does affect their lives.

But Sweden has very different cultural mores banivani viz. the owner of Mojang being publicly vilified for taking a private jet when he sold his company.
It seems a far less inequitable society than Great Britain, at least on the surface, concept of lagom etc.

I’m not British (though I’ve lived here over 20 years), but to me “lower class” in Britain is mainly signified by England flags in the windows of houses; the Jeremy Kyle show (before it was banned); reading the Express or Sun and the type of mentality that goes with all that. This is why Brexit happened, unfortunately - the disenfranchised “lower class” in a weird combination with the middle class pensioners of the Home Counties.

You can be “working class” but not subscribe to any of this. It’s to do with attitude, aptitude, outlook and education.

The “middle class” is a free-for-all and I’ve no idea about “lower” and “middle” middle. This seems a nonsense tbh.

I have one set of in-laws I’d say are lower middle, and one set upper middle. The lower middles’ children were the first generation to go to university, but it was expected that they would, and that they’d do well professionally, buy their own homes fairly young, and delay having children until they’d done those things. Graduation photos on display. Very house-proud, garden-proud and conscious of appearance and being seen to do the right thing. Lots of holidays to resorts on the Med, the Canary Islands and the odd long haul. Swearing and discussing politics or religion considered unacceptable.
Upper middles- children privately educated. Similar expectations of home ownership, career etc, but taken more for granted than considered an achievement- you don’t see the graduation photos, for example. Casual expectation that everyone is financially secure, and finance is discussed quite happily over dinner along with politics. Same kind of casual familiarity (possibly exaggerated) with upper class social and cultural things like Glyndebourne, the Edinburgh festival etc. No idea where they go on holiday but I’d put money on them not being seen dead in Cyprus. House is clean because there’s a cleaner, it isn’t a point of pride.

What makes a person LMC these days is having a few quid. Being a bit of a twat over spending. Wanting what the mc have yet having more than working class in limbo
Does this LMC even exist. I am wc and believe class is inherited. Money did not buy class the way it does today. Still doesn't imo
Who the fuck actually worries about this stuff, as long as your happy healthy and not hungry.
Merry Christmas ya'll.

My parents are not English so maybe that's why the class obsession baffles me.

They say ‘pardon’, toilet’, ‘settee’, lounge’, ‘serviette’.

I say pardon & excuse me, toilet, sofa, lounge, napkin & eat supper, but go out for dinner. We also enjoy pudding.

New build barrat estates, laminate floors, everything new, Gastro ready meals, New Zealand sauvignon, all inclusive holidays. TGI Fridays

Hate new builds, laminate & TGI but love Marlborough Sauvignon & M&S ready meals.

I have no idea. I was born working class but to the outside that isn’t obvious. I’m not sure I care really.

"I say English on purpose because I don’t think the class system was quite as easily applied in Scotland, I’m not sure about Wales but def not in Ireland either north or Republic. Different factors at play there, but I refer to my source material here. wink"

Yes, I think you're right. Some of the things here e.g. u and non u are very English. However, if you live in Wales or Scotland or northern Ireland you're in the same class system in a way and most of the things I've mentioned work the same way in many European countries.

Barbara sorry, probably more pertinent is the fact that both my children have disabilities and attend specialist schools. Parents evening isn't a five minute chat about age-related expectations and then moved on by the HT, it's far longer and more detailed, by appointment (DS's last one took one and a half hours). That might put it more in context, particularly the bit about aspirations and future schools etc.

"I honestly do think that if people tried to stop the oneupmanship over little things, it could gradually build up to a less divided society overall."

You totally are missing the point. Identifying as a class is not about oneupmanship. It can be the complete opposite - solidarity. To fight inequality we first have to realise it exists and that means not being blind to class.
It's a bit like that woman on QT who voted Tory and was then surprised that she was affected by benefit cuts.

Im certain DH is "classier" than me, but no idea where either of us fits, i think 99% of people consider themselves "middle class"

He went to private school, top uni, well paid job in finance and his hobbies are fancier than mine, skiing, golf etc.

I actually went to the same uni & earn only a smidge less but am from much more humble background, my dad was first in his family to go to university and both parents are from very deprived towns in the north.

I think some elements of "class" are behavioural. DH would never have a public altercation or cause a scene, he was once disgusted with me for angrily thumping the bonnet & gesticulating at a a car who ran a red light at a pedestrian crossing & nearly ran me over. DH family also eat very late, would never waste money on a brand new car, and there always seems to be extra money washing around, an investment maturing here, an elderly aunt leaving money there.

You can be “working class” but not subscribe to any of this. It’s to do with attitude, aptitude, outlook and education

Exactly. My parents are English tree and so am I obviously and I too am baffled by the class system. People take seemingly random and unconnected behaviours and interests and claim that they are definitely associated with one particular class like Doob illustrates.

The fact that there's no definitive or consistent definition proves that it means very little, except perhaps that if you're rich enough to go to private or public Eton type school, then you make connections that give you an advantage should you choose to use it.

To me, anyone actually claiming to be 'lower middle class' is solidly working class but doesn't like the idea. Actual lower middle class people simply call themselves middle class, undifferentiated - but they're anxious over class signifiers in a way the self-described 'lower middle' aren't.

I'm working class. My parents were on benefits and I worked a minimum-wage job for most of my twenties. Then I went to university and expanded my cultural horizons a bit. I enjoy things like the theatre, but I'll be in the cheap seats. I use most of the 'U' words on the list posted upthread, but the middle class alternatives seem pretentious rather than déclassé. I've had people tell me I can't still be working class and be a PhD student, which I find bizarre. The monthly stipend from my funding body is a little more than I used to earn working full-time.

"It seems a far less inequitable society than Great Britain, at least on the surface, concept of lagom etc."

I remember a Norwegian friend telling me opera was highly subsidised there and accessible to everyone in theory, but it was still mainly posh people who went.

Doobigetta

Spot on. My (more LMC) have all the graduation pics in a row, DH (more UMC) parents didn't buy a picture at his .