What are the main identifiers of those who describe themselves as lower middle classes?

[Rosehip10]

As distinct from middle/upper middle.

Never heard of lower middle as being a think to be honest. I think younger people dont really understand the old class system. It used to be more defined, in that working class were the very poor, who probably worked down the pit...and lived in terraced houses. They were the true "workers", as probably working in really hard manual jobs. Middle class were those who worked in higher more professional jobs, such as insurance or Councils, and who probably lived in nice houses in suburbia. Upper class were toffs who were aristocrats and probably had family money. Now it's all mixed. There is a lower class, but most of them dont work, they are on benefits, so they cant really be called working class. Lots of people think they are in middle class if they work, but they arent really what used to be called middle class. These might be plumbers, nurses, etc. Then there are people in better paid professional jobs..I suppose you might now call them upper middle?

I don’t think it has anything to do with money, I certainly don’t think you can say all teachers are middle class for example. My son tells me that he gets told off at school for saying what instead of pardon.

MatildatheCat, I have heard it said" the bigger the telly the lower the I.Q "

"My son tells me that he gets told off at school for saying what instead of pardon."

Quite tight too, although not sure how that has much to do with class? I would say Teachers are lower middle class if I had to put them somewhere in the class system, if there is a lower middle. Doctors and solicitors would be upper middle, lower upper....although I still reserve upper class for aristocrats.

I think that @grapefruitsarenottheonlyfruit has it spot on. You have the poor: relying on benefits, the rich who have enough property and investments to be able to live without working. Then there's the middle which is the vast majority of people. And I then think class becomes cultural and is not income based but is how people choose to spend their spare money.

So you'd be looking at things like type of holiday, car and clothing and choice of leisure activity as well as type of area and house people live in.
It's very hard to define, almost impossible. And I think harder as time goes on as more people work in service industry so the traditional white collar work. So jobs and income don't reflect class.

I'd say lower middle is a 3 bed semi in a suburban area, probably has a caravan holiday in a park in the UK or a week's all inclusive somewhere like Majorca or Tenerife. In leisure time would go shopping, to the cinema and watch a lot of TV especially ITV.

The more middle middle tend to either camp or hire a cottage or villa here or overseas. Leisure time is more visiting museums, galleries and things like National trust. They may watch more documentaries and current affairs on TV.

I don't really know much about the upper middle class but I think that your children going to private/public school would be a major indicator of this group. I am also not sure what their interests and hobbies would be that differ from the middle class but probably more rural horsey pursuits.

It is not cut and dried though, and I am not sure at what point your own background effects your class once you are a fully blown adult. I am from a quite middle class background but my mum was lower middle and dad middle to upper middle.
I am now a uni educated single mum living on a new build housing estate in a terraced house working a lower middle class job. But still have a middle class accent and tastes due to my background.
It's complicated!

"Family background/childhood is certainly as important in "class" as current salary/income/job - look at the historical (still for some!) disdain for "new money" and the classic Daily Mail type stories of a "chav" type wins the lottery and would never been seen as middle class."

I see what you mean, but someone who wins the lottery acquires money without education and all in one go, whereas someone who trains for a profession has been middle class or upper middle for longer and has actually changed class rather than just acquired money.

This reminds me of a novel where a pools winner kidnaps a girl and one of the 'messages' of the novel was a very snobby one - that tragedy happens if the lower orders acquire money in that way. There was quite a lot in that novel on the difference between middle-middle (a doctor's daughter) and lower-middle (clerical worker).

Oh it wouldn't be a MN Christmas without a class thread!

The milk in first thing is surely debunked, as those well-to-do would have high quality porcelain capable of handling tea first, milk second?

No-one would ever describe themselves as lmc.

Class is not linked to money, even now, in the UK.

Lower middle class...

Always washing their cars

The whole class thing is bollocks, especially nowadays as traditional class "boundaries" are much more blurred, but people (the English?) really love to categorise everyone as something.

Going by the traditional method of what your parents do/did for a living then I'm middle class. I was also a teacher, now an education adviser, so I guess my children would be middle class by that definition too? I did that thing on the BBC a few years ago when they decided on new definitions and the "top" class was the Elite. I came out as one of the Elite (a teacher living in a one-bedroom flat, permanently in my overdraft 😂). It appeared to be down to most of my circle of friends being CEO-types and nothing to do with me at all, and most of those CEO-types would all describe themselves as middle or working class because of their backgrounds rather than where they are now.

All bollocks!

Is one of the signs that you want to know precisely what the identifiers of each social group are?

Aren’t these outdated now?

" I certainly don’t think you can say all teachers are middle class for example. "

I think you can, by definition. Educated professionals so middle class. That some of them don't speak posh by your standards in neither here nor there.

YABU. Nobody self-identifies as "lower middle". If you are labelled as lower middle class, you are given this label by others - either because they want to justify that they are superior to you ("upper middle class") or because they perceive themselves as "proper" working class and need to find a different category to reject you into.

although I still reserve upper class for aristocrats.

The aristocracy is a class of its own above the Upper Class.

Says Sir Jilly of Cooper!

"No-one would ever describe themselves as lmc."

I do and some others on the thread have done too.

It probably doesn’t matter on a day to day basis apart from feeling whether you ‘fit in’ or not and the insecurities that can create.
Career and ‘success’ wise it still matters hugely.
Being born into a stable two parent family impacts on your future hugely.
Even the nursery you attend can make a difference. A local playgroup or childminder is les likely to see your children develop confidence in a foreign language or worry too much about diction.
The school you attend impacts on much of the rest of your life. If you consider Oxford has 58% state school pupils and St Andrews 60% then that’s unfair given only 7% attend independent schools.
If you then look at Exeter students income compared to say Huddersfield students five years post graduating, you’ll see it makes a use difference.
The armed forces similarly have 49% of army officers being privately educated (Eton has a full time officer to support applicants to Sandhurst). The RN is a bit better but still 38% are independently educated.
Selection for the best London clubs which allow networking and improve the chances for your children are hugely elitist and subjective.

Whether you say lavatory or the T word isn’t really the issue, is it? It’s the lifetime advantages conferred with higher class status that is heavily policed and preserved by those who benefit most. Some get through but many don’t even know the game to play.

Quite tight too, although not sure how that has much to do with class?

I've learned from "MN" that saying "what" is upper class and saying "pardon" is lower middle.

Social class still determines huge amounts about people’s lives in this country. Claiming it doesn’t exist or isn’t important is as counter-productive as airily saying ‘Oh, I simply don’t see race!’

That's because it's the system that is the problem, not the people. It's not people's skin colour that is the issue, it's the associated stereotypes that ARE the issue. Class is a big old bunch of stereotypes.

4jn

" It just seems very shallow at Christmas when there is so much unmet need in society 🙁."

Much less shallow than many of the other threads on MN. This thread is actually making people think about how lucky they may/may not be.
Are you out helping the homeless at the moment? Doesn't look like it because you're typing on MN so are you any better?

I guess I am. I was born working class (not “lower” class!) but now I am a professional and a home-owner, which are probably two of the more relevant markers.

That list of words is the most bizarre thing I've ever seen. I can't even tell which side is supposed to be posher and which side more common. Half the comparisons are just British vs American English.

Isn't the buying the Christmas Radio Times Vs the Christmas TV times a major indicator of class as discussed on recent threads!

Rose I didn't mean access to working as an artist. What I meant was that being a successful artist will mean people of the upper classes will accept you no matter what your class.

"The structural issues are to do with money, not how people describe where they pee."

No, they're not just down to money. Education comes into it as well. Someone like Obama, raised by a mother on food stamps, did much better in the world than some others with the same amount of money partly because his mother was highly educated.

I didn't have the kind of knowledge that MNers have about what kind of subject to study at uni, but that has nothing to do with money. There were no fees in my time. This access to knowledge is also important as are contacts.

Why is everyone so obsessed with classes at the moment and having to put a label on top?!