That I'll never be able to vote or belong anywhere again?

[daretodenim]

I'm Scottish and live in an EU country where you have to be a national to vote. So I can't vote here. If I were to become a national, I'd have to renounce my UK citizenship. I'm British, I don't want to do that.

As I've been out of the UK for 15 years, I am not eligible to vote in the UK.

As I'm not living in Scotland I'm not eligible to vote in any Indy Ref.

I've been holding out hope that IF Scotland became independent I'd get a Scottish passport and somehow made a link that I'd get a vote. However, I realised today that every single time an indy ref is discussed by Sturgeon and she refers to Scottish voters, she refers to "the people of Scotland". She does not refer to "Scots".

So basically, I'm not considered a person of Scotland, as that's those who live there.

I'm never going to get to vote again, am I? In the country I'm living in (and will have to for complex reasons for the foreseeable future), I'm considered British/Scottish. They don't see me as one of them, because I come from abroad. Fair enough. Yet, neither Britain nor Scotland see me as one of them either, because I'm living abroad.

So if I want to be part of a democracy, I have to renounce my identity. I can't quite believe this can be happening.

That’s far easier for you to say this seeing as you live in a country, where the common language is English and where your European citizenship means nothing

I came back from Australia. With an accent though.

But if you do live in a foreign country for a long time, learnt the language, their customs, etc - can you claim to be e.g. French, German etc - or do you have to be born there to claim that?

I feel and sound British but I wasn't born here. Similarly I value my roots as they will always be a part of me. It doesn't need to be an either/or.
Identity is like a layered cake. Remove one layer and you change the whole thing.

Attributing nationality on grounds of what people look or sound or feel like is fucking dodgy, dodgy ground.

As is attributing voting rights depending on what someone means when they say 'quite'.

There isn't a right or wrong here - some people feel voting rights should be based on citizenship alone. I don't. I feel voting rights should be based on residency (except in the case where a vote relates to fundamental rights of citizenship such as the Brexit vote). Neither of these is objectively 'right', they are both opinions.

And holding the view that voting rights should relate to residency does not mean that I think Brits residing abroad are lower than criminals. Some of the language being used here is pretty ridiculous.

Problem with residency as a requirement is it's much less clear-cut than citizenship. Citizenship is binary, yes / no. Residency is arbitrary. Why is the cut-off fifteen years? why not fourteen or ten or twenty-five? do you count as resident if you've been here a month? six months? a year, even if you intend to leave forever the day after the vote?

The same sort of questions apply to citizenship. What if you plan to renounce citizenship the day after the vote? If citizens' children can vote, for how many generations does this continue?

And residency can be perfectly clear cut and binary - there are specific rules governing tax residency, there is no reason there can't be specific rules governing voting residency.

There will always be a seemingly arbitrary cut-off of some kind which will make someone unhappy, whether the test is citizenship or residency. I think it is fairest if elections which mainly affect residents (i.e. general elections, where key issues are things like the welfare state, NHS, education, policing) are voted in by long term residents, and elections which mainly affect citizens (e.g. Brexit) are voted in by citizens.

But according to some on this thread the above view means that I hate British citizens overseas and consider them lower than pondscum! (Never mind that some of my relatives are Brits ;living overseas.)

It's a really good example of how aggressive and polarised politics has become, and it's really not a healthy way to discuss things.

I never understand this attitude, you don’t live here, haven’t done for 15 yrs but think you should have a say.

Agreed. I spent a number of years out of Scotland and plan to emigrate again within the next couple of years. 🤞

After 15 years, I don’t think anyone should be allowed to still vote in their ‘home’ country.

If you want to vote in your home country so much, go back and live in it.

Attributing nationality on grounds of what people look or sound or feel like is fucking dodgy, dodgy ground

No one is attributing nationality on those grounds.

But if you do live in a country for a long time and start to sound like a local and behave as a local, can you claim to be that nationality even if you weren't born there?

People living abroad should still have a vote after 15 years because British politics still directly affects them. How is this a difficult concept to grasp?

The problem is that the outcome of these referendums do affect UK citizens living overseas. Why shouldn't Scottish people have a vote in the future of their own citizenship? In some cases leaving the EU, or Scottish independence will cause them to lose their jobs or force them to relocate again.

There is also a difference between people who emigrate permanently aiming to get citizenship of their new home country and those posted by their companies around the world.

But if you do live in a country for a long time and start to sound like a local and behave as a local, can you claim to be that nationality even if you weren't born there?

Um no. Otherwise I wouldn't have spent the day photocopying tax returns from 1998 so I can apply for nationality. I can think of better uses of my time, frankly.

@chomalungma
Where did I say anything about lowering vat? I merely said I pay it as I buy goods in the U.K. that are delivered here. Why do some people insist on making things up?

I may obtain citizenship of the country I live in, but I will never be mistaken for a born national, although I passed a language exam in order to apply, I will never speak as fluently and with all the nuances of a native speaker, likewise, I do not look like those born here and will never completely assimilate. It’s just not possible

Where did I say anything about lowering vat? I merely said I pay it as I buy goods in the U.K. that are delivered here. Why do some people insist on making things up

There was supposed to be a question mark after that.

However - the impact of VAT on ex pats is generally insignificant to the impact it has on people living in the UK - both British citizens and foreigners.

Whereas local VAT and local taxes have a much bigger effect

People living abroad should still have a vote after 15 years because British politics still directly affects them. How is this a difficult concept to grasp

Some people disagree with that.
How is that not a difficult concept to grasp?

One of my adult dc has left the UK to live abroad and will have a vote for 15 years, as it stands.
I don't think it's right. They're going to be living and working abroad, paying taxes abroad - why should they get a say here, in the country they left behind?

I wonder why there isn't any call in all the other civilised countries that let citizens abroad vote for life to strip expats of their vote. People in the rest of the world seem to be like "yeah, you're still a citizen, fair enough".

Is Germany not considered civilised these days?

The UK is not the only country to place restrictions on the voting rights of non-residents.

I also don't think that what other countries do is necessarily a guide to what the UK should do. Plenty of countries (including the supposedly civilised US) still have the death penalty, but I'm glad we got rid of it.

The OP needn't worry anyway. This government is planning to extend the franchise to include non-resident citizens, with no time limit on eligibility. So they will be able to vote in our next election.

It won’t only be our general election it will also be theirs. That’s the point.

onder why there isn't any call in all the other civilised countries that let citizens abroad vote for life to strip expats of their vote

There hasn't really been a call for emigrants from this country to have the vote in the UK for their lifetime. Yet the Conservatives have put it in their manifesto and in the Queen's speech.

Mind you, that could backfire on them if they muck up Brexit and shaft emigrants to the EU.

Why would you think you would get to decide the future of people who live and work in a country that you don’t work in or pay taxes too? It should be down to the people who actually live there.

It won’t only be our general election it will also be theirs. That’s the point

I vote for my local MP who knows my constituency, speaks up for it in Parliament, understands the local issues and who I can go and speak to at a regular surgery. That's one of the arguments for a FPTP system as it keeps things local.

It seems to me that UK politics has very little impact on UK emigrants - especially those who have been abroad for more than 15 years - compared to the impact it has on people actually living in the UK.

It's curious how they don't want to extend the franchise to 16 year olds living in the UK - but want to extend it to UK emigrants who haven't returned for 15 years and may never return.