To want to raise our child Bilingual

[NewMumBGentle]

Bit of background DP is Italian, born in Italy, family still live in Italy, Italian is his native language, we've very much made a home here and have no plans to live there, although e go over to visit his family.

I'm currently 32 weeks with our first child, a little girl and the conversation tonight turned to her meeting the family when shes first born, from that id mentioned that i'd like DD to be raised bilingual. DP disagrees, he says we'll be living in England and that his parents speak conversational English so will be able to communicate with her that way, he thinks theres no point confusing her with two languages at home and is adamant he will not teach her. His parents so speak some English but there's still what i'd consider a language barrier there, i'd teach her myself but my Italian isn't the best. I just about get by when I'm there.

AIBU to be annoyed by this? I feel like she has this connection to this beautiful language and culture and he's denying her that.
AIBU

That should have said baby/toddler group but you get the gist

I wish I had had the opportunity to bring up our children bilingual. We have several sets of friends with multi-lingual families who have been able to do this and it is such an amazing gift to be able to give your children. If my partner were a native speaker of another language I would 100% be getting him to speak it to the children at home.

My dad is Greek and didn’t teach my siblings and I for much the same reasons. It is one of my biggest regrets to be honest.

It’s so amazing to be able to speak another language fluently and opens up so many doors. I get what he means, but he’s being foolish and short-sighted. Us English are well-known for being lazy when it comes to learning other languages!

Mum of a bilingual toddler here.

I realised early on that OPOL wouldn't work for us, because DH was self conscious and a bit reluctant and isn't the primary caregiver, so I went on a mission.

I was already at basic conversation level in his language and spent my entire mat leave creating a complete German immersion environment at home. Played German learning podcasts and Youtube videos all day constantly. Stopped watching TV in English. Got a load of German baby learning books and read them aloud constantly. Bought all her learning and development toys from amazon.de. Changed Netflix to German and only allowed German cartoons. In a way, I've spent the last couple of years learning alongside my child, picking things up through self imposed immersion.

It worked for us. It was VERY awkward at first and we had to really change how we communicate as a family (German is now mainly our family language and English is mainly for after DD is in bed haha). Sometimes I'm aware that I sound like a twat, rambling on at my kid in crap German while out and about or switching language mid sentence if I don't know a word). But it's also brought us all closer together and we have our very own unique "Denglish" family culture.

Our toddler seems to understand both languages and can follow simple instructions in both. She was a late talker but has a 50/50 vocab in both. It seems to be working out.

I don't think it would have worked though if I hadn't embraced it and gone full immersion myself. She gets native speaker exposure from DH and from television but the majority of her interaction and playing etc is with me. I did worry that I'd pass on my own grammatical mistakes to her but I've done a lot of reading and as long as they are also getting enough native speaker exposure to make up for any errors, they learn quickly to self correct.

OP, if your DH is reluctant, you might just have to take matters into your own hands and start speaking Italian at home yourself and keep doing it until he just cracks and gets with the program. :D

I think many posters here underestimate how difficult it is to do OPOL in England, where one of the parents’ main language is English.

Children understand very early that there is a “majority” language that will get them understood outside the home. Language acquisition between the ages of 2 and 6 goes at lightning speed - children learn a new word literally every few minutes. There quickly comes a time where a child has a dominant language, and it becomes tricky to teach new concepts in the non- dominant language. Put simply, you end up using English because you don’t want to hold your child back when they come to you with questions in English.

My first language is French, but despite my best efforts, DD10 and DS8 are not bilingual. This is despite having a French nanny for 6 years, having tons of French books and DVDs, holidaying in France, French summer camps etc. DD spoke fluent French until about 4, and declined after that. DS is even worse. They are both doing well in French lessons at school, but neither can have a conversation in French.

To all those with bilingual toddlers, I’d say - enjoy it while it lasts. Kindergarten or school may change that.

Consistency is key and if the OP isn’t on board than it will be impossible. Enlist the help of his parents if they’re on board.

It sounds as though the best way to bring children up English Italian would be to move to Italy NewMumBGentle ... As I said it was one of the reasons I said yes to moving to Germany when dc1 was little... English is the easiest language to maintain as a minority language - mine are mid teens down to mid primary school age and none have ever refused to speak English and they are definitely native speakers (writing excluded for the younger two) despite the fact I'm the only English person they know in Germany and almost every element of their lives outside the house happens in German...

I don't actually know any OPOL dads who have succeeded in bringing up bilingual children, possibly as they are often not the main childcarers early on."

I think there is truth in this.

I also think many people underestimate the difficulties. In the same way that people say to me, "cant your dp just talk to you in french". Its really awkward.
My dp found it really hard to keep talking to the kids in french once they started responding in english, because he said when people talk english to him, he thinks in english, and when in french, he thinks in french. Theres no translation happening, and its really hard for him to just switch from one to the other.
He also finds it tricky when we are in france to work out what im saying to him in english, if hes in french mode

@RevolutionofOurTime

Thanks for your informative post, although it made me a little sad.

Do you think it hypothetically would make a difference if both parents communicated at home together in the minority language?

For example, did you and your DH speak English or French together at home?

I guess I'm trying to work out if the difficulty is raising kids bilingual with a minority language at all or if OPOL is where the most pitfalls are.

Most of my bilingual friends who successfully were raised fluent in a minority language have had exposure from both parents, who both spoke the minority language at home.

Thanks for your input.

@Sssneks brilliant post and approach

The OP wants this but obviously the “connection” doesn’t mean much to her as she hasn’t learned the language

Velveteenfruitbowl I think I understand what you're getting at. My son is bilingual and my husband is fluent in 4 languages... I see and feel the change in them when they switch, the thought patterns and even their body language changes.

It's not only about language, it's also about a holistic cultural understanding and feeling totally comfortable, as mentioned upthread.

zwellers I understand the majority language but don't speak it very well. So although our household language is English and we do a rough version of OPOL, we're pretty flexible. Sometimes it's only possible to express your meaning using a specific word from one language, and extended family gatherings are a fun mix of both languages. There's nothing forced about it, it's just a wider range of ways to speak. Did you feel forced to speak English as a child or did it feel like a natural and normal thing? Multiple languages from birth is like that.

Whatever you do, don't just fully immerse a child at the expense of the native language of the country you live in, I don't know any children where this had a positive outcome.

In fact I can see it the negatives with a little boy in DS's class (reception) who is really struggling, 15hr of nursery won't help them understand enough by the time they start school.

In fact I can see it the negatives with a little boy in DS's class (reception) who is really struggling, 15hr of nursery won't help them understand enough by the time they start school.

This is rubbish. Full time immersion in the community language at school is enough for most children - bilingual kids who struggle at school are usually those with other disadvantages or disabilities. London schools have a very high % of bilingual/immigrant children and also some of the best results in the country.

There is no evidence that being bilingual (especially where one parent is a native speaker of the community language, as the OP is!) puts children at a disadvantage and they may actually be at an advantage compared to monolingual children.

Anecdotes are not data: for every class with a struggling bilingual child, others will know of classes where bilingual children are top of the class. In fact in DS's Y13-equivalent class in a French high school, the top three students are all bilingual children of immigrants (two English kids and one native Spanish speaker).

I guess I'm trying to work out if the difficulty is raising kids bilingual with a minority language at all or if OPOL is where the most pitfalls are.

I know quite a number of OPOL kids and the answer is - it depends.

OPOL where the dad is the minority language speaker and where he is out at work all day will have different results versus OPOL where the main caregiver speaks the minority language.

Often kids with limited exposure to language via OPOL will have good comprehension but are more reluctant to speak - usually their expressive language will come on quickly once they spend a bit of time with other native speakers.

It will also depend on language aptitude. My DD speaks and writes Spanish fluently after 3 years of bilingual high school: at her high school diploma exam, the examiner for her oral exam though she must have a Spanish family! My DS although bilingual and a generally bright student does not have anywhere near the same facility for languages.

As for positive OPOL outcomes, I know one family Anglo-German living in France with 2 teenagers born and educated in French-speaking schools. Both are trilingual. The parents used OPOL and the kids speak German and English fluently - their German is noticeably better than their English, probably because their maternal (German-speaking) grandparents have lived with them for some years. Their English is fluent but sometimes sounds slightly "Germanic". Both boys have native-standard French.

It's definitely true that some concepts simply don't exist in every language and that language shapes thought. That can make expressing thoughts and concepts to people who don't speak the language you encountered those thoughts and concepts in frustrating obviously. However it means more languages open up more big ideas, more ways of seeing the world. How can anyone not want that? It's fascinating. Who'd want to make their mental capacity smaller?

When DS was at his old school there were three children who spoke English as a first language - and two of them could speak a second language. The rest were a mix of kids from all over the world.

When they were tiny, some of the children did struggle - but these were children who for some reason had very limited access to English outside the home - so only native speaking at home, books, tv, nannies, clubs and friends etc - but they picked English up on their way.

My Grandson is being brought up bilingual using the OPOL method (Mum Russian- Dad - English and they live in Moscow). He is 20 months and has been a little later in using words (but has always been very vocal and ‘talks’ all the time). In the last couple of months he has developed a handful of words in both languages and consistently uses Russian when talking to his Mum and English with his Dad and with us when we Skype. He seems to be working it out ok with no confusion at the moment.

I teach a 12 year old who can speak 4 languages! She is amazing and it is a real gift that her parents and wider family have given to her.

It depends on your DDs individual skills. I'm a native speaker and tried for 6 years to make my DD bilingual. It turned out she really didn't understand me and that created bonding issues. Just be always on the lookout for potential miscommunications

feel people who find this a bad idea often only even speak one language themselves and envy those who speak more than one language, trying to find a rationale why being unilingual is superior

It’s not monolinguals. They don’t even have that option anyway, right? It’s most often immigrants who want to drop their heritage language.

It’s a complicated issue, but I do think it sad when I meet someone who is studying their ‘heritage’ language; it feels like such a missed opportunity (But still better than not even trying I suppose).

My son-in-laws DF came from Pakistan, wanted his children to only speak English as this is where they lived. He became ill and wanted a muslim funeral, when he died it was very hard on the family as they had to rely on others to organise this.

It's completely different to teach a child both languages, even with the emphasis on the country's non native language and to just expect them to pick it up outside of home exclusively. First option is great, second one really isn't IMO.

For clarity's sake, I'm trying to teach DS my native language and another foreign language I speak.

DS's classmate speaks virtually no English, he is struggling to keep up and can't actually really play with anyone as he can't understand the rules so to speak. So no small world stuff and nothing more complicated than tag which means he spends most of his time alone except for when DS plays with him. This isn't great for the poor kid.

I have mixed feelings on this. I fully recognise that bilingualism is great on many levels but...

I was brought up in a 2 language household but rejected the second language from age 8 onwards. I am really glad I wasn't forced to carry on using it as it was all over emotionally charged. Suffice to say I speak this second language poorly now. I went on to study another language at uni and now live and work in the country.
I am now married to someone whose mother tongue is different to mine and I am trying to raise my child bilingual as I think it would be good for her. If she refuses at some point though, I won't insist and I wont be particularly sad if that happens.

I must say some pps on this thread have done really well raising their kids bilingual. No way mine is and I attend a playgroup for that language and all the other kids are equally crap : )

I am trying to comfort myself with the knowledge that I work with quite a few bilingual people and I can't say I find them sharper or more open minded than monolinguals !

I lived in Germany for a very long time and I knew an Anglo/German family who were bi-lingual. Except they weren't. When the children spoke English to me they were far from fluent and had very strong German accents. As my German improved I started to notice that the children actually didn't speak German very well either- they made loads of grammatical mistakes and all of them were having extra German language help at school. It was a bit sad really, they all spoke two languages but none of them spoke either language completely fluently.

As for job opportunities, I think if you live in the UK there is only a very limited scope for using a second language in your work. I came back to England with fluent German and a qualification from a German University- I have never found any employer to be even the slightest bit interested. Sometimes it is tagged on a end of a long list of skills in the 'desirable' column, but there is never any extra salary for it, you get offered the same money as someone without languages- so in my experience it is just an optional extra. Being an English native speaker in Germany was much more useful though- so a foreign language does help career wise if that language is English and you are not in the UK.

I read youve less chance of developing dementia if youre bilingual.
Tell that to my poor Mum. Brought up tri-lingually and actually went from slightly forgetful to full on dementia in a very short space of time. Sadly it made no difference for her.

Yes the dementia prevention lifestyle changes all seem riddled with exceptions - I worked for a short time in a care home and there were many formally very sporty (and still physically fit and strong and very physically active) people with fairly early onset dementia still in their early to mid 60s Sport, especially things like tennis which requires a combination of mental and physical skills, is often put forward as a dementia prevention or impedance method, but there's no sure fire way to avoid or delay dementia.