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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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To agree with JK Rowling?

999 replies

StraightenUpAndFryRight · 20/12/2019 09:22

mobile.twitter.com/jk_rowling/status/1207646162813100033

‘Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill’

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
GCAcademic · 21/12/2019 16:40

Whether or not you decide that the terms man / woman / he / she exclusively denote the holders of any of those characteristics is an ideological position.

So no words have meanings, in other words, they are all just ideological positions? They can mean not only what they mean, but whatever anyone else claims they can, in addition? What about the legal, scientific, and dictionary definitions of words? Are they to be jettisoned because some people don't like them?

JellyfishandShells · 21/12/2019 16:41

Whether or not you decide that the terms man / woman / he / she exclusively denote the holders of any of those characteristics is an ideological position

No, it isn’t. Yet more twisting of basic, factual communication into ‘feelings’ and ‘theories’

We see you. This tripe doesn’t run any more.

XXJingleBelle · 21/12/2019 16:46

‘Dress however you please.
Call yourself whatever you like.
Sleep with any consenting adult who’ll have you.
Live your best life in peace and security.
But force women out of their jobs for stating that sex is real?
#IStandWithMaya #ThisIsNotADrill’

94% agree. Xmas Grin

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 21/12/2019 16:46

Anyone who finds the Fact that humans can't change sex offensive is in for a very difficult life.

Woman = Adult Human Female. End of.

AtrociousCircumstance · 21/12/2019 16:47

JK, thank you. Star

EvenSupposing · 21/12/2019 16:59

Can't believe this poll hasn't yet been gamed.

You just can't get the TRAs these days Shock

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 21/12/2019 17:01

I am trying to think of another SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN FACT which could be deemed offensive as a comparison. Struggling.

Except for the earth is flat/the moon landing never happened.

Which tells you all you need to know really Confused

DurtySarf · 21/12/2019 17:05

I've sent a postcard via her agent.

VMisaMarshmallow · 21/12/2019 17:28

Oh I’m so glad you’ve all moved onto hypothetical cleaners who are anti abortion.

I have an actual cleaner (don’t be jealous, my house is a shit tip, the cleaner helps with the worst due to my physical disabilities and my daughters asc/pda/adhd and the fact they don’t sleep because of this. Your houses are all cleaner and nicer than mine I promise).

Now my cleaner is European, catholic, and a MAN! Him or at times his wife have been our cleaners since our girls were teeny so we know them very well, and are all close enough to gift Xmas presents and bring back holiday gifts etc and I’ve passed on some of the nicer clothes our kids grow out of for his grandkids. He speaks very little English but his wife speaks much better English and there’s plenty times we’ve sat and had a cuppa while I’ve been nursing little ones or crying about asc assessments and similar. Now neither husband or wife have specifically stated they are anti abortion etc but they have said before they are catholic, and have briefly commented on things like how they have so many kids and grandkids because of their religion. They may well hold much more extreme catholic beliefs for all I know and maybe they are public about this on social media. So the fuck what?! Doesn’t harm us at all. If they started telling us not to use contraception or told our daughters that abortion was a sin then I’d stop employing them but if it’s stated on social media (if they have any) it’s none of my business.

We are atheists and as our children have autism abstract concepts like a god we don’t believe in within our family are really difficult for them to grasp, and upsetting to them (they have extreme anxiety over things that wouldn’t provoke anxiety to most). Our cleaner has definitely mentioned in passing god or Jesus etc in reference to Xmas or similar. If my kids get distressed then I just have to explain to them that other people have other beliefs and explain to him that we don’t personally believe in god. This for us is something that can cause weeks of upset with the girls -although it can be hard to tell as they have constant upset over something or other it feels- but it’s still not that big of a deal. He doesn’t need to be told never to mention things we don’t believe in in our house and our kids will have to learn others hold different beliefs however hard that is for them to grasp.

JAPAB · 21/12/2019 17:32

So no words have meanings, in other words, they are all just ideological positions? The

They have the meanings humans have ascribed to them. They do or do not denote whatever sets of facts that humans define them to denote.

My point remains that you cannot justify a particular denotation just by pointing out that the facts you want the term to denote, in and of themselves, are facts.

It is a fact that a same-sex couple cannot procreate a child. But it is up to you whether you think this fact is necessary in the unions you denote as "marriage" isn't it?
And if you decide it isn't, it would be strange if someone else was to object to your redefinition of marriage by acting as if you are disputing the fact that same-sex couples cannot procreate.

No you are not disputing that, anymore than anyone disputes chromosomes in and of themselves.

EvenSupposing · 21/12/2019 17:34

We can't just all go round calling carrots turnips and still expecting to get the veg we order in a restaurant though can we? Grin

JellyfishandShells · 21/12/2019 17:39

They have the meanings humans have ascribed to them. They do or do not denote whatever sets of facts that humans define them to denote

Word. Salad.

VMisaMarshmallow · 21/12/2019 17:41

Dutch aren’t women a protected class? Sex is in the equalty act, including the various exceptions parts of it. Is that a slightly different term from protected class? It is criminal that the fact we are harassed, raped and murdered because we are women doesn’t bump these crimes up to hate crimes, but there are already campaigns in place to try and get that changed (they won’t succeed of course, but I’ve signed petitions for these before).

HarrietThePi · 21/12/2019 17:42

We can't just all go round calling carrots turnips and still expecting to get the veg we order in a restaurant though can we?

Grin
JAPAB · 21/12/2019 17:42

I am trying to think of another SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN FACT which could be deemed offensive as a comparison. Struggling.

What scientifically proven facts are being deemed offensive?

Or are you conflating "I find it offensive to use term X to denote fact Y" with "I find fact Y offensive" "?

No-body thinks you can "change sex" in the sense of changing chromosomes. No-one disputes that some humans have a Y chromosome, some do not. It is the labelling that is in dispute.

StandUpStraight · 21/12/2019 17:44

JPAB you are making less and less sense with every post. Perhaps you think your words have a different denotation than they actually do. That would certainly lead to some misunderstandings.

VMisaMarshmallow · 21/12/2019 17:48

Labelling isn’t in dispute. Or at least it hasn’t been for the last few centuries within academia. If it had been no one would ever have been able to turn in course worse due to lack of agreement of labels. The fact the marking process occurs means the dictionary definitions have worked just fine up until trans people misappropriated them.

HarrietThePi · 21/12/2019 17:50

Women are adult human females. Lesbians are women exclusively sexually attracted to other women. Only women can give birth. Only women menstruate.

These are all examples of facts which have been construed by some to be offensive.

EvenSupposing · 21/12/2019 17:52

It's pomo nonsense innit? Someone's going to start in about the signifier and the sign in in minute and I'm going to be back in that lecture hall in 1998 again with a pounding headache comprised of red wine and MDMA.

Breakfastat · 21/12/2019 17:54

JAPAB I think you’ll find that there is a lot out there who ARE disputing the very fact you say they aren’t.

HarrietThePi · 21/12/2019 17:55

If my pet bandanna tree is a green pet jigsaw yes.

Words have meanings. Those meanings must be defined and understood in order to communicate effectively with each other.

koshkat · 21/12/2019 18:01

JAPAB sadly there seem to be lots of people who think that humans can change sex. I find it amazing too!

tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz · 21/12/2019 18:13

Yes some people do believe "humans can't change sex" is offensive. Some also claim that whilst they themselves don't believe this they defend the rights of others to be offended. And it's ok for a woman to be sacked for stating a universal truth fact which offends another.

Or will there soon be a mass recall of text books, information leaflets, medical records etc which now contain potentially offensive "labels"?

MerchantOfVenom · 21/12/2019 18:16

No-body thinks you can "change sex" in the sense of changing chromosomes. No-one disputes that some humans have a Y chromosome, some do not. It is the labelling that is in dispute.

Yes, it's the labelling that's in dispute - since everyone knows in the heart of hearts than men can't become women, and vice versa.

The labelling then becomes the issue by people who need tell us, for reasons of their own, that black is white, the earth is flat, and the Emperor has a fabulous new set of clothes.

koshkat · 21/12/2019 18:43

But some men claim that they are women, penis and all - it is just a fragrant and delicate shenis.