To wonder why people dislike Civil Servants?

[tequilasunrises]

Disclaimer: I am one.

I’ve only worked in one Government department but it’s mostly filled with people who work incredibly hard and are passionate about what they do. In spite of the fact that they aren’t paid as well as they could be in other industries, have shoddy infrastructure and IT, are understaffed and overworked etc.

Yet many people seem to think we are on some sort of gravy train and just sit around smoking cigars and ripping up taxpayers fivers.

I just wonder why really.

A further disclaimer is that it’s my day off hence the posting on MN in the middle of the working day

Because when the public are told "no" they like to pretend that somehow the person saying is blissfully unaware of the "real world" of working (no idea whete they think civil servants go at the end of the day) and trying to pay bills. That the person is wrestling with out of date systems and having to follow a procedure in order to try to help.

YANBU

My DH is a civil servant and he works insanely hard and his conditions and real term benefits (pay, pension) just get worse and worse.

I have no idea why people would inherently hate civil servants?

It's the same as people thinking teachers have it easy because of only having to work 9-3:30 and getting all those holidays.

I have a friend who was quite high up in the Civil Service and he worked incredibly hard and cared passionately about doing a good job. It must be difficult to do your best if you don't agree with the politics of your bosses aka MPs.

I think the perception of “civil servant” got mixed up with “Whitehall mandarin” and people think that it’ a small group of men in suits hanging around Downing Street tinkering with unpopular government policies despite not actually being elected (I.e. Special Advisors, who are NOT civil servants).

It's mostly fueled by the media, certain newspapers will headline bungling officials did XYZ (when it's often the regulations they're adhering to) and word of mouth ”my mate reckons total bullshit” which is passed on in conversation and thus becomes reality. Ok there are some incompetent buffoons but they tend to get managed upwards with promotions to keep them from causing any real problems.

Oh.

I don't think people dislike civil servants so much as they dislike the system.

I was based in a civil service department (well, an executive agency) for a while, working alongside them but not for them.
Everyone there was very passionate about what they did, and worked hard. Admittedly not as hard as in some comparable private sector jobs I've worked with long hours cultures, but I don't think that's a bad thing.

The problem was the institution:

• a strong internal hiring culture meant that you were always short staffed. e.g. head of dept leaves, one person down gets promoted, the person under them gets promoted, the person under them gets promoted, and then you hire externally for a new entry-level person. Great for people on the inside, not so great for the department who ends up being a person short for 6 months + whilst each post is recruited for in turn. This also means that you don't get many senior people with experience from different working environments, so noone can envisage a different way of doing things that might be better.
• Fixed pay scales that are below private sector market rate means you attract people who value work life balance over people who value being absolutely excellent at what they do and being appropriately rewarded for it. This is fine for a large majority of posts but means it is very difficult to recruit people into specialist posts because you aren't allowed to pay enough to get someone good enough. Then you end up with 4 different sets of people in 4 related departments spending months trying to cobble together solutions to something that should really be a centralised process and done by an expert who could do it in half the time and do a better job too. But it's somehow more acceptable for 10 people each paid 40k to spend 6 months on something than to pay one person 80k to do the job properly. And then when people really can't do it internally you bring in external consultants who get paid a ridiculous amount to do an often-shoddy job.

I think many people have been influenced by years of stereotypes in the media. The civil service is seen as either hugely overpaid and over-influential (thanks to Yes Minister) or as a bloated system full of do-nothing pen pushers. The reality, as far as I can see, is that the term ‘civil service’ actually covers a huge number of government-related roles across a wide skill set, with pay rates that are equally varied. Unfortunately the sheer size of it means that, whenever people hear of budget cuts, ‘Shouldn’t we be trimming down the civil service first?’ is the automatic cry from some areas.

So many industries suffer from catch-all stereotypes. Anyone in TV who ‘works in Marketing’ (never a specific marketing role) gets paid a lot for doing little. If only! Similarly, a good friend of mine who is hugely bright with a strong sense of justice works as a duty solicitor. She is constantly frustrated by the stereotype that only people not good enough for private practice would do it - TV portrays them as bumbling idiots most of the time.

During the 'good times' many working in the private sector had bonuses to brag and sneer about or even simpler things like staff rates if they worked in retail, company funded Christmas meals out etc, whereas anyone working in the public sector got none of these things but had what was known as a 'gold-plated- pensions scheme into which they paid a lot. Post recession, the private sector decided that they were badly done to and the pension schmes for public sector employees were something to be very jealous and envious of.

A lot of it is the "Jobsworth" attitude from a minority that can overshadow the good work done by the majority. Along with the "nit picking" culture. It may not be too bad these days, but older people have long memories and most people will remember a run-in with a nit picking jobsworth at some stage in the past.

Re hard working, I'm sure most are. But there is still a prevailing culture of working to the deadline even when things could be done quicker. Eg, when I did my mother's probate, we were told we're here back from the probate office within x weeks. After several weeks, I phoned to ask progress and was told that the application was scheduled to be looked at on x date, which was 2 days before the deadline. So rather than working through an "in-tray", they were working to the calendar, basically even if they could do it sooner, they weren't going to. When we finally got their response, exactly x weeks to the day, and we progressed to visiting their office to swear in person, it was exactly the same - date of meeting exactly, to the day, the y weeks deadline. When we arrived, 30 minutes early, we were sat in a waiting area with a big window looking into their office - they weren't rushed off their feet - just 4/5 people chatting and meandering around. At exactly the meeting time, we were called through, even though we watched the same guy basically sit at his desk doing nothing for those 30 minutes. It's that kind of culture that people see, and sadly the civil servants who DO work hard get tarred with the same brush.

This also means that you don't get many senior people with experience from different working environments, so noone can envisage a different way of doing things that might be better.

I think that's probably the biggest problem with all aspects of the public sector, particularly the NHS. The "we've always done it that way" culture that is difficult to break, perpetuated by the safety blanket of only ever recruiting from within.

I worked in a situation with civil servants for a year alongside them. The only ones kicking up a fuss about conditions were them, getting the union involved at every opportunity. They had really, really ineffective overtime attitudes (if I'm in the office I'm productive"). They were extremely outdated as a group in terms of skills, I was constantly amazed at how much like an office in about 1998 it felt, 20 years later.

On the plus side I got lunch breaks when there. And the office was usually empty by 5pm due to various childcare, adaptations, medical appointments being priority.. so it felt like I was inheriting their normal work life balance, it was a shock but a good one.

I once got "if it wasn't for me, you wouldn't get paid - I pay your wages"
From a relative who didn't work and had been unemployed for years.

I've never met anyone who looked down on civil servants. On the contrary, when I was one people would be in awe and act like I had the best job in the world (I didn't) and was very lucky to have such a position (I wasn't).

I don't dislike civil servants. I didn't even know that was a thing!

I remember growing up in NI, if someone was a police officer, they would often lie and say they were a civil servant.

I don't hate them all generally, but my personal experience of meeting them socially is that they think they're the dogs bollocks, which is quite irritating (these have been fast streamers, TBF).

I think that's probably the biggest problem with all aspects of the public sector, particularly the NHS. The "we've always done it that way" culture that is difficult to break, perpetuated by the safety blanket of only ever recruiting from within.

I worked for a public sector though not civil service body and more senior appointments were made externally than internally and transformation and change were huge drivers, sometimes too much so.

I've worked alongside Civil Servants for years. There are very hard working ones who do a great job. The ones who give the CS a bad name:
A. Work the sickness absence system to the max.
B. Take the piss over flexible working.
C. Are bureaucratic jobsworths.
D. Non-CS line managers like the military are scared to discipline them because the system is confusing and the line manager lives in fear of a tribunal.
E. Don't meet their annual targets and nothing is done.
F. The appalling appraisal system targets the wrong bottom third.
G. Pay is crap....
H. Benefits are getting less.
I. This leads to the wrong people staying in.
J. Training could be better.

I once got "if it wasn't for me, you wouldn't get paid - I pay your wages"
From a relative who didn't work and had been unemployed for years. hmm

Oh yes and you are easting taxpayers money if you take a loo or coffee break.

I'm a bit surprised by this thread - I didn't think people hated civil servants (as opposed to politicians).

I know four (one now retired) and they're all intelligent, hard working and excellent at their jobs. And not arrogant at all - in fact one of them is probably the most modest person I know.

In spite of the fact that they aren’t paid as well as they could be in other industries, have shoddy infrastructure and IT, are understaffed and overworked etc.

Partly because of pious attitudes like that. If the private sector is so amazing, why are you all staying public and working in such a terrible place? You seem to suggest the private sector is all bleeding edge IT with massive pay and perks and more staff than you can shake a stick at.

For all its downsides, public sector does have excellent perks doesn't it - generous leave, solid pensions, family-friendly/flexible working, quite hard to actually sack anyone, can still be a job for life etc.

I think most people haven't a clue what a civil servant does.

There are pencil pushers in some areas of course, but some of us are literally saving lives as our day job.

Because it is known to be the home/ bastion of average middle class white people. Unfortunately it was where you went if you weren't really good at anything in particular.

I spent 20 years as a civil servant in MOD, and can agree with SophiaLarsen's post for many of the staff I met.

Not all, certainly less than 50% in my area, but a right pain to deal with. I left on voluntary redundancy in the end, mainly due to a bullying boss.

I am a civil servant in one of the most disliked departments. I think it's because there is no choice, they can't go to a competitor for a better service etc they are stuck with us. So the civil servant working there is the 'face' and disliked. I just go out of my way to do a good job and make sure my people do too. But it's hard as budgets are tight and often you have to make decisions which leave some people disappointed.