To wonder why people dislike Civil Servants?

[tequilasunrises]

Disclaimer: I am one.

I’ve only worked in one Government department but it’s mostly filled with people who work incredibly hard and are passionate about what they do. In spite of the fact that they aren’t paid as well as they could be in other industries, have shoddy infrastructure and IT, are understaffed and overworked etc.

Yet many people seem to think we are on some sort of gravy train and just sit around smoking cigars and ripping up taxpayers fivers.

I just wonder why really.

I've been a civil servant for 29 years.
Worked in HMRC & the MoD, there are so many myths posted on this thread.
When I first joined yes it was a job for life but that has changed over the past 29 years, rounds of redundancies & redeployments, the same with the retirement age, pensions etc and 10 years of austerity - no pay rise above 1%, no pay scales.
So many job cuts , that you're now working 10 hour days with no lunch break. Flexible working actually meaning that you're 30 hours in credit with no opportunity to take that time off. Absence management policies the same as every other sector, objectives based on the how as well as the what. Yes HR is rubbish but that's been privatised out IE DBS so you deal with someone on the phone rather than someone who works on site.
I've sat on ' tax enquiry desks' when a contractor took his shirt off threw it at me & told me to take that as well, I've collected £M's in outstanding tax both as a collector & compliance officer, audited payrolls, tackled tax avoidance. I've also worked with the Military trying to plug gaps in capability through Defence cuts/reviews.
The recruitment system is not brilliant but for years external recruitment was banned because Govts didn't want to make the Civil Service bigger so you recruited from within or not at all to the point that the Civil Service in some parts of the Country now has more people over 50 than under 30!

I'm incredibly proud of the work I have done & the integrity & hard work of my colleagues. I'm very proud to be a Civil Servant!

I used to work as a tax consultant. We hired a few ex-Inland Revenue (as it was in those days) people. Their work rate was about half that of the rest of us, they expected there to be an agreed procedure for almost every eventuality and, somewhat surprisingly, their taxation knowledge wasn't that good. None lasted and our boss told HR she'd never employ ex-civil servants again.

@TeachesOfPeaches

Sacked straight off the bat without other disciplinary measures first? I’ve known people to be crap in both sectors but always been put on performance improvement plans in private and public. I’ve only known one person to be let go just like that and he was just a temp.

staff aren't given adequate training when legislation changes or when case law rules that the department has been interpreting it wrongly

Oh yes. HMRC take note.

I'm.embarrassed to say that I don't know what a civil servant does??

I don't know why there's an assumption you can't be sacked in CS, you can, it just takes a competent manager to fulfil the process, no different than in the private sector. I've not worked anywhere, public or private, where there's an expectation you could just get sacked, that just creates a blame culture surely.

I've been at my company for less than 2 years so can be got rid of very easily.

I had a manager in the MoD try to dismiss me actually. I went to stage one of the process but I resigned before the meeting and put in a grievance. He was military not a CS though.

Never had any issues in the private sector.

I’m a civil servant, know lots of very senior ones too. I also work mainly with former private sector people. Now, I have always worked in high performing areas and I completely accept that there are much lower performing areas that could do with a shake up.

My observation is that there are shit and amazing people in both. But the most amazing people have always been the civil servants, many of whom have been headhunted on to super paying jobs, including in banks.

I work with lots of people who’ve made the move to CS - it’s generally because they find the private sector work same-y and unchallenging after a certain point so switch after making a big pile of cash, or because they want a family and the banking/legal hours no longer suit.

I have heard some very bad things about MoD however!

oh come on, loads of people switch between public and private sector. I certainly have. I switched from CS to banking easily.

If this is true, which I doubt, then you are extremely unusual. I had to fight to get in front of private sector interviewers when I decided to leave my senior civil service job. Despite my being a big four-trained chartered accountant with a strong pre-civil service track record. Once they had met me, it was fine but I’d say that the majority of plcs and PE backed businesses I’ve worked with wouldn’t touch the CV of somebody who had always been a civil servant. Any public sector experience on your CV is poison unless you’re a permanent secretary to the treasury or similar.

the most amazing people have always been the civil servants, many of whom have been headhunted on to super paying jobs including in banks

This is utter bollocks, I’m afraid, unless you are talking about the former head of HMRC who was recruited (don’t use the word ‘headhunted’ unless you want to sound clueless) by one of the big four so that they could find out all of HMRC’s secrets!

This is utter bollocks, I’m afraid, unless you are talking about the former head of HMRC who was recruited (don’t use the word ‘headhunted’ unless you want to sound clueless) by one of the big four so that they could find out all of HMRC’s secrets!

Yes, I’m sure you’re right that you know better what my experience is than I do. And others on this thread too. What level were you, by the way and in what department? Maybe I just worked in a very different part.

Don’t see what’s wrong with the term ‘headhunted’ - a number of very large recruitment companies I’ve worked with use it. But I’m sure you know better on this point too.

I was also offered a secondment to a bank with a CS background, and know others who did it. Some stayed, some it didn’t suit so came back. It’s certainly not the norm, but it’s not out of the question.

I think it's much more likely that the civil service is trying to attract private sector people rather than the other way round.

I had to fight to get in front of private sector interviewers when I decided to leave my senior civil service job

Having been involved in recruiting staff for a firm of IFAs I can quite believe this.

What level were you, by the way and in what department? Maybe I just worked in a very different part.

Yeah, I’m really going to tell you where I worked, I’ve already said, upthread, that I was recruited into the SCS from the private sector.

Don’t see what’s wrong with the term ‘headhunted’ - a number of very large recruitment companies I’ve worked with use it

What’s wrong with it is:

• sad sacks who have been approached by a recruiter about relatively junior jobs get over-excited and can’t wait to tell everyone that they have been ‘head hunted’, as if they were so special, unique and brilliant that their fame has spread to people they have never met. When the truth is that an old CV has surfaced and they are one of many. It’s silliness and naivety.

• anybody recruiting to truly senior jobs wouldn’t use this term because it makes them sound (1) not confident enough in their own profession and thus likely to use a description that makes them sound more important and (2) like somebody who panders to excitable sad sacks.

In my experience people hate the children of civil servants too. Or at least they did in (soon to be ex) mining towns in Thatcher's Britain. I was one of very few children of white collar workers at my school and my Dad was a fairly lowly Civil Servant who worked in benefit fraud investigation no less. He earned far less than most of the miners and other blue collar workers in the area did so me and my sister were dressed in homemade clothes and cheap stuff off the market whilst simultaneously being considered "posh" . We learned to be really fast runners though. Then when the recession hit and our Dad was investigating half the families in the town we learned to be really fast runners who never took the same route home on two consecutive days.
Seriously though, there are a lot of misconceptions around the civil service and that is what leads to a lot of the hate. Plus frontline staff are often giving desperate people news that they don't want to hear. My sister followed in our Dad's footsteps and she has suffered lots of verbal abuse and been attacked physically several times in her career. She has been in several departments but says if she ever gets moved into Universal Credit she will leave.

Would the civil servants on this thread describe the excellent tv show The Thick Of It as an accurate portrayal of civil service life?

Robin and Terri (“Coverley, comms”), definitely.

it's much more likely that the civil service is trying to attract private sector people rather than the other way round.

Quite right. Many don’t stay long: can’t cope with the stultifying atmosphere and the remorseless blocking of every idea.

One side of my family are almost all military, the other side almost all civil servants! So not exactly popular to the general public.

I think it depends what “flavour” of civil servant, people are generally ok with police officers, fire fighters and even low level admin people they’re less sympathetic to the “yes minister” types of which there are a few in my family.

Some are milking the gravy train for all it’s worth that’s definitely an issue but the majority are hard working, civic minded people who genuinely want to serve the country and it’s people.

I’ve been a civil servant myself, wasn’t great pay but I found it very rewarding and satisfying and I must admit the clear rules and regulations, clearly set expectations did really suit my personality.

But yes, frustrations too with rules that seemed to exist for no other reason than “we’ve always done it that way”, multiple copies of everything unnecessarily, many layers of “ranks” (one job I had involved getting down ‘on paper’ lists of various roles in rank order - omg the amount of time wasted arguing with people offended they’d been given lower “billing” than someone they considered to be of equal or EVEN WORSE lower rank! One assumed from the off that I was completely unaware of ‘the system’ but thanks to family background I was probably more so than most and he was unable to “blind me with industry terminology” - he wasn’t impressed and put the phone down on me, then had to call back 5 mins later and apologise because he needed a related favour 😂😂), inter-departmental rivalries...

“Yes minister” played it down! I keep meaning to watch the original “house of cards” and “thick of it” as I’m told i will spot the accuracies! But yes that’s the Westminster bubble civil servants.

@bingoitsadingo your post at 1033 is spot on

But also sometimes the general public think civil servants are being officious when they’re following rules essential to security/people’s safety. An issue I came up against at times and which I know family members and some friends who are civil servants have had problems with too.

As someone now dealing with CS from the other side of things now - dwp - I have sympathy with those i
come across who are genuinely trying to do their job and be helpful (yes they exist - but they’re becoming more rare!) but I’ve none with the ones who lie through their teeth! I’ve been told 2 major lies in relation to claiming benefits and many minor lies - it was not “lack of training” they were blatantly bullshitting! I’ve also friends who’ve had lies told to and written about them inc a friend who’s never walked supposedly was seen walking at an assessment - assessor must have been Jesus! 🙄

That’s inexcusable.

But the ones that do care and are doing the job considerately are being squeezed out. I recently was dealing with a specialist dept within dwp relating to my pip claim, the lady helping me was great and really understanding of my circumstances. As we reached the final stage of dealing with my claim she had to give me different contact details to finalise it all with someone else...because she was leaving, reading between the lines of what she was able to say to me
I believe she was leaving because she refused to treat claimants negatively. Luckily most of what needed to be done had been done but the person I was transferred to wasn’t nearly as understanding or competent!

And yes I do get annoyed at basic incompetence - especially when I KNOW from own work experience and from family/friends still working in CS (I sometimes double check if a task is still meant to be done a certain way) that they’ve not done something or not done it how they were supposed to. Although it can be fun when I can say to them “actually I know you’re supposed to use form x and reg y regarding this”

Yes my first job in CS the person who was leaving (moving to private sector and thought he was “all that”) was lazy! He told me to take a book into work as there was rarely anything to do! When he left after the 2 week handover period and I could properly find my feet I discovered there was a load of stuff in his job description he plain hadn’t been doing! Another mug had been taking up his slack, and regularly doing and claiming overtime for doing so! Ridiculous! Once I figured out how that job was really supposed to work I always had plenty to do but not excessively so.

“I dont really know what a civil servant is always assumed it's a kind of code for people who sit in a fancy London office and write policies or someone who really works for MI5.” There are LOADS of different CS jobs all over the country it’s certainly not a London only job! Mod CS provide admin, IT and other support at military bases all over the country, tax offices aren’t all in London, there’s the DVLA, cps, education, Defra... there’s all sorts

@kazzyhoward one of my relatives is a forensic accountant for hmrc, mainly investigating fraud of course but yes a lot of the time it’s not intentional fraud it’s small/solo business people who can’t understand the bloody rules! Ignorance is no defence but she sympathises when she believes it’s a genuine mistake and helps if she can (legally of course). The big bads who have their own in house tax lawyers she has no sympathy for as they usually knew exactly what they were doing.

I posted today about poor customer service primarily in retail - considering that’s the private sector it’s funny how many customer service staff are miserable and not particularly helpful

I’ve posted similarly several times. Customer service generally in Uk is appalling! I’ve been organising some Christmas stuff today and had to speak to 2 major Uk retailers regarding problems with their IT and they were hopeless! Not only in not being able to even articulate what the issue is let alone fix it! But mumbling speech, not listening/paying attention properly so I kept having to repeat myself/put the problem in words of one syllable! Quite honestly with our ACTUAL high levels of UNemployment it makes you wonder how these people got their jobs!

“Here we go - lots of people sticking up for retail staff - they are badly paid and deal with awful people so that justifies rudeness.” I agree it’s no excuse for poor service and behaviour on their part. I’ve worked retail too (I’ve done a lot of different jobs!) and when I did, we were not only trained to treat the most awkward customers with utmost professionalism we were supported if they really got out of hand but to be honest the best way to deal with awkward/angry/frustrated customers IS to be the epitome of professional - the ones who aren’t arseholes then calm down, the ones who ARE arseholes it effectively gives them “enough rope” as it were and covers your own arse when they inevitably complain.

I’ve also been a nurse (Yep loads of jobs!!) and when I see/hear of retail workers complaining of “rude” customers who actually were just frustrated and making a reasonable complaint I think of when I was spat at, hit, kicked, bitten... as a nurse and think ‘you don’t know how good you’ve got it!’ Yes yes I know don’t race to the bottom... but I do think too many retail workers now don’t make the effort.

I’m currently housebound but I experience it when calling online retailers and when I was last regularly out and about I noticed the decline in retail workers behaviour - slouching, scruffy appearance, chewing gum, rarely smiling at customers, not greeting customers when approached, mumbling, if they speak to you at all, lack of manners... appalling.

Retail work was NEVER well paid or a “good” job particularly but certainly when I was doing it and I’ve quite a few family/friends in this sector too it was a matter of personal pride when doing the job to:

Be smartly and cleanly dressed, stand or sit straight, welcome customers politely, listen to customers if they had a query, answer them speaking clearly, Employ basic manners like please and thank you and can I wrap that for you etc

My first customer facing jobs were when I was 14! If I can manage that at that age I see no excuse for grown adults in the job not to manage it.

My mum also worked retail among other jobs and we (my siblings and I) saw her example from an early age as we’d often go to meet her from work with dad (so he could drive her home - 1 car crap public transport) and if she was busy and not finishing on time we’d end up sometimes seeing her working. She was always polite and clear and professional, she was especially good with more...challenging customers which is probably how she ended up moving into complaints end of things and then security (VERY “tricky” “customers”) she has a very calming way with her.

I am not civil service, I work in child protection and have done for nearly two decades. Lots of my friends work for the civil service though and we have major departments based in our northern outpost of a city. Their working life has been hell since the Brexit referendum, there has been no room to work on anything else. The public have no idea what they do or their role. Most people I know want to leave but they have families, mortgages etc. They are not earning mega bucks because you do not in the public sector unless you are VERY senior. Even then, you would earn much more in the private sector with the and skills, qualifications they hold.
I am a senior child protection social worker and have been for nearly 20 years. Before being a social worker I was a senior nurse. Very few people argue social workers are under paid. The majority of the population seem to think we are well meaning do gooders; lacking in common sense. The reality of our job, working with the most vulnerable, requires a very high standard of post graduate education. We have statutory duties, act as expert witnesses within legal proceeding and work therapeuticaly with children and their parents, many of which have suffered trauma, neglect and systemic poverty unimaginable to the majority of the population. I love my job but I have not received a cost of living pay rise since 2004. I am a single parent and the reality is my pay packet is 40% less than it was 10 years ago. I am at the top of the pay scale and I cannot fix my broken boiler or my broken car.
The narrative that people working in the public sector are living the good life is tired and untrue. The pay has always been lower than the private sector, the pay off was the pension and other working conditions (much reduced). Following the economic crash, lots of people have had an issue with that. This is a massive generalisation, but several builders I know were making 100 000 a year doing some cash in hand,
yet were very quick to dismiss public sector workers as scroungers when work dried up.

@TeachesOfPeaches

"I've been at my company for less than 2 years so can be got rid of very easily."

That's no different to the CS! In fact my body's probation is 12 months long, longer than the private bodies I worked for. What you're describing is standard UK employment law, no different in the CS.

There's no arguing CS like to maintain and promote their own, but you can be sacked like anywhere else, it just depends on the will of the manager....like anywhere else!

The public sector is hugely different to the private sector. There have been several threads over the years about people being bored stiff at work because they have nothing to do, and it's usually public sector.

I temped for a while in a government department and agree with the poster who said it was like going back 20 years and there was definitely a "this is the way we've always done it" attitude. One of my jobs was printing off emails and filing them. People promoted because of length of service not ability. Very inefficient recruitment process and to get sacked you practically needed to murder someone in the office. Managers terrified of the union so couldn't/wouldn't make any changes.

But it's the whole public sector attitude which is so completely different.