To wonder why people dislike Civil Servants?

[tequilasunrises]

Disclaimer: I am one.

I’ve only worked in one Government department but it’s mostly filled with people who work incredibly hard and are passionate about what they do. In spite of the fact that they aren’t paid as well as they could be in other industries, have shoddy infrastructure and IT, are understaffed and overworked etc.

Yet many people seem to think we are on some sort of gravy train and just sit around smoking cigars and ripping up taxpayers fivers.

I just wonder why really.

I have no issues with civil servants... however those who work for DWP I do. Simply because most of them are unhelpful arseholes who don’t want to educate themselves to help others.

It's not all their fault. The amount, and quality, of training they get is piss-poor.

Oh Christ, not the “I haven’t been trained for this” defence. I heard this all the time from people who couldn’t be arsed learning new skills. Or basic skills, like, you know, taking proper notes at a meeting or writing a letter.

I’d show somebody how to write a proper business letter. I’d ask them to write a letter to somebody based on that template for next week (easy deadline). Next week I’d ask to see the letter. The person wouldn’t have written it. Hadn’t been officially trained, see.

In the real world, you upskill yourself for stuff like this, and get someone to show you how to do it. You don’t sit on your lazy arse making excuses not to learn stuff, even when it’s spelled out to you, in case you have to do more work, but that’s what happened.

Those attitudes were endemic. There were some really good people, of course, but too many were lazy, unmotivated and thought that they were owed an easy living.

Incidentally, and I never thought I would say this, I’m with Dominic Cummings on the MOD. Bloody hell! Lame duck central.

I dont really know what a civil servant is always assumed it's a kind of code for people who sit in a fancy London office and write policies or someone who really works for MI5.

I dont really know what a civil servant is always assumed it's a kind of code for people who sit in a fancy London office and write policies or someone who really works for MI5

I do write policies. In a fashion. I also write a lot of letters.

Glad to see a lot of civil service folk on here doing the best we can with the little we have

Cakeandcustard what a horrible post. That says more about you than people that work for the DWP frankly

@Iamthewombat, it's not necessarily about learning new skills, but in the DWP especially, staff aren't given adequate training when legislation changes or when case law rules that the department has been interpreting it wrongly.

This means that decisions end up being overturned at costly tribunals, after a lengthy wait and a lot of stress for claimants, totally unnecessarily.

One of my first experiences of this was when a DWP call centre bod told me that a matter I was helping a client with had to be referred to the complex case unit. The "complex" rule as something I had learned about at an incredibly basic 2-day "Introduction to Benefits" course, covering all working age benefits, not just the ESA that was the subject of the problem.

It's glaringly apparent with Universal Credit, they have had next to no training in legislation re the housing costs element, most of which has been "imported" from housing benefit regs.

It's definitely a perception fed by the media. In the private sector you're just expected to work unpaid overtime, evenings, be online even if off sick/on holidays.
Media would have you believe (whether true or not) first sign of having to do anything extra leads to people going on strike, whereas often it's probably the case that it's long overdue and much needed

Glad to see a lot of civil service folk on here doing the best we can with the little we have smile

Some are fantastic.

The staff at the various offices in the south east where benefit tribunals are held seem to be unfailingly polite, pleasant, helpful, flexible and very kind when dealing with distressed appellants, especially those with mental health problems (appellants, not staff!).

I am a civil servant but in Ireland.

I think it's because there are a lot of grounded secure people in the civil service who have chosen to prioritise the security and live with the lower salary (compared with market salaries). This would be me. I flourish in a secure environment. I earned more 20 years ago but I had already been relocated, made redundant, I was always nervous and terrified to show any initiative.

The civil service suits me, I'll admit it. I work really hard though. Very hard.

I've worked in some really awful places and I value the fact that there is a basic minimum level of respect that must be shown at all times. I like it.

PS, I agree, the lazy stereotypes are fed by the media in Ireland anyway. Journal.ie, I'm looking at you

I don't hate civil servants. The ones I know tend to have chosen jobs with lower salaries than they might have otherwise attracted because they wanted to do something they cared about.

My husband worked alongside an incredibly dysfunctional group of them for a few years in a military environment. It was said they were like an SA80 rifle: they didn’t work and you couldn’t fire them. I, on the other hand, have worked with some who were brilliant.

Wow, that's a really broad generalisation.
I don't hate them, what makes you think people do?

The not being fired is very important to me. For the first 20 years of my career (use that word loosely) I suffered so much, I was badly used and abused a few times. I faced a lot of sexism. Now I imagine I'd face ageism and sexism, so I'm happy to protect myself from the job market which needs more of a shake up than the civil service I reckon! Recruiters and employers in the private sectors only want young people, young people, young people.

I work very hard and I've no fear I'll be sidelined to a less dynamic team. But they do have ways of shifting people around if they're under performing.

One thing that always makes civil servants and other public sector bodies quake is privatisation. It's when they finally realise that despite their universal belief, wages in the private sector for doing the same job are lower, the terms are not as good and the pensions far worse. The staffing levels for the same task may also be lower.
I don't particularly dislike civil servants, but they are so easy to wind-up.

Recruiters and employers in the private sectors only want young people, young people, young people

That isn’t true. I got a number of jobs as an older worker because of that. No chance of me getting pregnant, no childcare to consider. In many industries older women are preferred.

A close family member is a civil servant. The Department they work in is very forward thinking, very professional and very much motivated by the desire to do the best they can. I think a lot of people hate civil servants because they have the misguided idea that the CS is responsible for unpopular policies, which of course come from the government.

@jcyclops I’m not sure I would agree that the wages are necessarily higher. Perhaps in some cases, in others perhaps not. My DH earns more than I do in private though I think I have more job satisfaction.

But you are correct that I would hate for privatisation of my department to lose me my pension and certain benefits (eg enhanced mat pay).

It feels like a race to the bottom when people complain about CS’s having these benefits - surely we should be striving for enhanced employee rights in as many workplaces as possible not begrudging them!

My partner is a civil servant. He is a good employee who works hard during his contracted hours and loves his job. But, by his own admission, nowhere in the private sector would he be able to work such great hours. They leave on the dot (or earlier), maximise leave and sick days. He doesn’t want the extra money, he values his free time more. But it leads to jealousy from many.

Re the high pensions generally received in the public sector - someone upthread suggested the private sector should try to offer comparable pensions rather than moaning about the public sector pensions. However the pensions offered by the public sector are totally unsustainable. Many private companies have completely rejigged their pension schemes because of this. It would take a very brave politician to demand that the public centre do the same!

However, my main beef with civil servants is that no one ever seems to lose their job no matter how badly they do it. Particularly at a senior level, people are just moved to another department even when their previous dept (under their leadership) has been deemed unfit for purpose. Or they retire early (yes, even earlier than usual!!) with full pensions.

Most private sector workers are not able to retire at 55

Most private sector workers are not able to retire at 55

Nor are most public sector ones.

The 'normal pension age' for civil servants retiring in the next few years is now 66, and it will eventually rise to 68, alongside similar changes to the age that older people can start to receive the the state pension.

The normal pension age for the original final salary scheme is 60 - this scheme closed to new members in 2007.

Civil servants are not all retiring with a full pension at 55. The average civil service pension is around £7k a year. Which they contribute to.

And if the civil service is that great there are plenty of jobs around if you want to apply - it’s not a closed shop. Quite a few admin jobs around paying under 20k.

Disclaimer: former civil service specialist for part of career.
The civil service is a very broad church. Roles range across every type in a "normal" company like HR, accounts, admin, marketing to policy makers and those working in Ministers offices.
So yes, you'll find those who fit the stereotype jobsworths who play the civil service system. Also those promoted beyond their skill set or moved on to another department to avoid disciplinaries.
But you'll also find a large number at the beck and call of ministers, who often treat civil servants badly, or who work long hours with little pay In Whitehall, only sustainable for the young and family free.
Some work in very stressful jobs such as dealing with the aftermath of violent crime every single working day or being abused by the public for decisions made by Parliament which they have to implement.
It's an incredibly diverse workforce unlike any other and I saw the good and the bad.

I am a civil servant and work in a very complex, high profile policy area. I work around the clock doing way more than my hours. I recognise a lot of the negatives described here and share many of the frustrations. I do however try to influence and change things. And with some success.
I also know people who join from PS and take a pay cut because they want to make a difference not because of the work life balance myth.
I will also say I have had a very wide ranging career doing stuff on the frontline that took courage. I didn't realise it at the time cos I was young but I got involved in some really dangerous work that now I am a little aghast at my willingness to do so.

I think people would be surprised at some of the work we do. I know I friends are.