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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

fairytale new york homophobia disguised christmas cheer

347 replies

Ontheboardwalk · 16/12/2019 22:57

This is my Christmas song, Christmas starts when I hear this song. Kirsty MacColl sounds fabulous.

It’s all over the newspapers again about the outrage.

Shane MacGowan has explained a million times what the word faggot means in his life and this song. There’s no harm in the song

AIBU that outrage at this word finishes and everyone should all sing along together to a great tune

OP posts:
Sl1pkn0t · 17/12/2019 22:08

Oh do give over. My son isn’t offended by everything or part of a brigade. He simply doesn’t like walking into a room and being called a faggot in a derogatory way, having it texted to him or bring told to get out of the way because he’s a faggot. He doesn’t then want to hear it on a loop during the Christmas period.It’s offensive and frankly I couldn’t give a shiny shit what your brother thinks.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 22:16

If I was out with my brother and his mate and someone called them faggots then of course I'd be upset and annoyed, beyond upset because it's just not a word I hear anymore and I of course find any homophobic behaviour upsetting. But Even when fairy tail comes on I barely register the word and I certainly wouldn't automatically think, that bloody song is causing these ignorant morons to insult my lovely brother.

I refuse to be offended by a word in a song that was never meant to offend!

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 22:19

@S1 strangely my brother is, to my knowledge never called a faggot, perhaps your son needs to find new people to hang around with.

Bouledeneige · 17/12/2019 22:20

Oh this is the end of culture as we know it. Do you understand that art mimics life to illuminate its truth and ugliness? It might express views without approving of them. Art 101.

There's a creative and beautiful song that imagines the conversation between 2 drunks who love and hate each other. That says everything about the intoxication and anger felt by many people at Christmas time. Its an imaginary conversation that ends up with no point of view winning, its two way abuse loaded with alcohol and messiness.

But on here there are people who don't understand the role the arts play in illuminating the tragedy and ugly pain of real life. Who can't understand the separation between ideas and personal views. Who don't get the purpose of art and creativity. If you knew anything about Kirsty MacColl the artist you wouldn't for one minute think she was being abused without any come back. The song is raw and beautiful like the Pogues and Kirsty and herself. Oh my god. Can't believe we are going to venture into a world where only opinions we agree with get expressed and we learn nothing about truth. Snowflakes kill art.

Wieas · 17/12/2019 22:22

My favourite Christmas song of all time.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 22:27

It’s not all the lyrics of the song that’s being called into question, it’s two particular lyrics. And those two lyrics have caused an awful lot of harm in the world, and there is absolutely no reason at all that they couldn’t be beeped over or replaced with something else. Same song! Just two words changed.

Who can't understand the separation between ideas and personal views.

Presumably then you think we should still play Gary Glitter on the radio?

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 22:28

S1 strangely my brother is, to my knowledge never called a faggot, perhaps your son needs to find new people to hang around with.

Yes, instead of making the word faggot unacceptable we should just tell gay people to find new friends. Sound advice.

Nextphonewontbesamsung · 17/12/2019 22:31

Oh God this song again! It's such a fucking dirge. Why are people so precious about it?

Spatt · 17/12/2019 22:33

I could never stand the miserable song so I'd be very happy to hear it less, but the whole hoo-hah about the word is ridiculous

Original poster
Ontheboardwalk · 17/12/2019 22:33

Just catching up. What the fuck is that Ronan Keating version all about?

For me the key point is there was never a slight intended on the original version. Shane has said this many times.

Words mean different things to many people. It’s our job to inform the people around us what the words mean

And the bells are ringing out for Christmas Day!

OP posts:
Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 22:33

@Bouledeneige 👍👏

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 22:38

Words mean different things to many people. It’s our job to inform the people around us what the words mean

So again, if someone called your kid a faggot, would you assume they meant this very specific, thirty-odd-year-old Shane McGowan meaning, or would you assume they meant ‘derogatory term for gay person’?

And if your kid called someone a faggot, would you explain to the person they said it to that it is actually a thirty-odd-year-old Irish/Liverpudlian term for idiot? Or would you be embarrassed and ashamed that your kid chose a word that related negatively to a gay person?

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 17/12/2019 22:38

While I’m sorry if gay men and others are feeling as if the word faggot, in this song is an homophobic slur, it’s been pointed out time and time again that your understanding of the word in these circumstances is completely and utterly wrong. I can’t help feeling a bit fucked off at all the none Irish people trying to dictate what an Irish term/expression actually means. Feel free to censor the insults and derogatory terms used in your own cultures, but please stop trying to tell us what we mean.

It’s an amazing song that has a tragic storyline and is much better than the mass produced misogynistic crap that is now being produced.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 22:39

FreeSunglasses Gary Glitter fan?

TinklyLittleLaugh · 17/12/2019 22:44

The word “faggot” has also evolved in meaning, as has the word “slut”. Years ago “slut” meant housework dodger, now means a promiscuous woman.

How come everyone is offended by “faggot” but not “slut”?

Oh yeah sorry, no one cares about offending women do they?

Anyhow, substituting “faggot” for “braggart” would seem to keep everyone happy whilst keeping the spirit of the original.

Sl1pkn0t · 17/12/2019 22:51

It’s not an amazing song, it’s horrible. Also the word faggot is now offensive and often used in a derogatory way towards gay men. Couldn’t give a stuff what the writer of said song was referring to its now upsetting to many and gives an incorrect message re the word and acceptability. Nobody in the gay community should be forced to listen to it. The aggressive and obviously derogatory way the word is used in the song will make many young gay teens probably already feeling vulnerable re their sexuality even worse. Their needs trump a bizarre Irish need not to have the word blanked out.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 17/12/2019 22:58

Their needs trump a bizarre Irish need not to have the word blanked out.

English people censoring what Irish people are permitted to say. Now what does that remind me off?

Sl1pkn0t · 17/12/2019 22:58

Freesunglasses my son is at school and has no choice with who he hangs out with.Hmm

Sl1pkn0t · 17/12/2019 23:00

Your last post was ridiculous Totally.

T0tallyFuckedUpFamily · 17/12/2019 23:08

Your last post was ridiculous Totally.

In your opinion, while your lack of understanding of Irish expressions and the offence being caused to some, by your policing of them, just shows your ignorance.

Original poster
Ontheboardwalk · 17/12/2019 23:08

Sl1pkn0t I think the key point now is faggot is now offensive. At the time and from the point of the person writing the song it wasn't an offensive term

OP posts:
ItsNearlyMorning · 17/12/2019 23:12

I just sent my gay Dsis a message and I said what do you think of fairytale of New York.
She replied with you're the slut and I'm the fagot with a laughing emoji and then said ewww do you remember gramps eating those horrible frozen faggots when he visited ?
I told her the song is offending some people on MN and she said Oh I love it I'm going to play it in the bar .
She manages a gay pub in soho .
15 minutes later I said did anyone get upset.
No she said they were singing along.
Our DF is American ( our birth father is Irish)
she knows all of the different meanings .
No fucks to give.
Maybe we were just brought up to not be easily offended.
Maybe we are a pair of arseholes.
I definitely don't support anyone being called a faggot or any abuse towards the gay community at all.
I'm pretty sure my Dsis doesn't as she was really violently assaulted and mugged while at uni and had to drop out because of the trauma.
I'm guessing it will get banned and the clean version will be played only sooner rather than later.
That's ok with me. As long as ronan keeting isn't singing it.

MyBlueMoonbeam · 17/12/2019 23:12

*The lyrics make me weep. Every. single. time.

I could have been someone
Well so could anyone
You took my dreams from me
When I first found you
I kept them with me babe
I put them with my own
Can't make it all alone
I've built my dreams around you 😭*

@brassbrass

Me too - also reminds me of my first Christmas with darling husband 💖

Sl1pkn0t · 17/12/2019 23:13

All sorts of things we used to say are now offensive. You can’t pull the culture card to excuse the continuation of use. If you do it could be done with other offensive words too.

LoisWilkersonsLastNerve · 17/12/2019 23:14

Ah come on, the chewy faced types need something to whine about at Christmas. It's their Christmas too Xmas Wink