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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

fairytale new york homophobia disguised christmas cheer

347 replies

Ontheboardwalk · 16/12/2019 22:57

This is my Christmas song, Christmas starts when I hear this song. Kirsty MacColl sounds fabulous.

It’s all over the newspapers again about the outrage.

Shane MacGowan has explained a million times what the word faggot means in his life and this song. There’s no harm in the song

AIBU that outrage at this word finishes and everyone should all sing along together to a great tune

OP posts:
beautifulstranger101 · 17/12/2019 19:26

Slut has meant a woman not good at cleaning, as well

Yeah- i guess thats where it started to imply women as sluts were "dirty". But nevertheless, you cannot say that you mean that word in any other context than as a slur against women- thats what I mean.

FakeChristmasTreesaremynewnorm · 17/12/2019 19:30

Does Shane McGowan care about this, I bet he doesnt. He's probably down the pub having a laugh.

Hefzi · 17/12/2019 19:40

You've still missed my point, beautiful- they aren't mutually exclusive. The fact that there's entrenched misogyny in a number of music genres doesn't mean that we can't also support gay men who find this offensive. They're both the same coin - it's about offensive language based on ignorant prejudice. Neither is OK. Just because FTONY is only played three months of the year doesn't mean people get a free pass over explaining away homophobia, any more than "it happens to women more does". It's not a race to the bottom.

I like the song, actually, though until today I didn't realise that I had been mishearing one of the lyrics (the one you mention, in fact) for thirty years. I'm not a man, and nor am I gay, so it's not up to me to tell those who are that they'd shouldn’t be offended by *faggot". Someone up thread said that the gay community will reclaim faggot - even were that the case, it wouldn't make it OK for me to use it. Anymore than because certain black artists have reclaimed "nigger" makes it OK for me to use that to refer to black people.

It's really not hard. Minority groups get to tell us what causes them harm. We in the majority respect that.

Women aren't a minority in the same way, and we absolutely should resist misogynist language in the music industry. But it's not quite the same as this, because you don't - at least where I shop- get piped music about hos, sluts or whatever. As of today, I realise this song has "slut" in, and I will admit that it's spoiled this song for me. I won't listen to commercial radio because of the prevalence of misogynistic music that's played, I don't go out to places that play that kind of music, I don't buy it and I don't stream it. But none of that means I can't also support gay people's requests to have this word bleeped out, today, now, a fifth of the way through the twenty first century.

scarecrowhead · 17/12/2019 19:48

Heard it played on the radio and the line had been changed to 'you're cheap and you're haggard'.

BinkyBaa · 17/12/2019 19:56

People really ought to just sing a different word instead of trying to get the song banned. Its fairly common for swear words to be removed from 'clean' radio versions of songs too (not bleeped, just the vocal portion of the track silenced for one word so it isn't noticable unless you're listening for it.)

March of the Black Queen has "N-word sugar" in it, but it's still Queen and it's a great song so we all sing "bit of sugar" instead. You could probably swap "blaggard" into fairytale of New York if you really wanted to.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 20:11

My favourite Christmas song!
I see with as couple who after a few drinks have a bit of an argument, calling each other names. Probably what happens in a lot of households over Christmas.

People nowadays just want to get offended by anything and everything.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 20:17

The years haven't been kind but his voice is still good!
m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=6RK-ICb9ngo

brassbrass · 17/12/2019 20:23

The lyrics make me weep. Every. single. time.

I could have been someone
Well so could anyone
You took my dreams from me
When I first found you
I kept them with me babe
I put them with my own
Can't make it all alone
I've built my dreams around you 😭

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 20:24

Oh and my friend who's gay sent me this link, he loves this song, as does my brother who's also gay.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 20:26

Are you suggesting that your friend and brother who is also gay speak for all gay people?

Sl1pkn0t · 17/12/2019 20:28

Great but not all gay people feel the same, my son jncluded. When you’ve been bullied, made to feel shit about your sexuality by people calling you a faggot in a derogatory way the term is offensive. There is no need for it to be included.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 20:49

@pumped not at all but they both level headed , intelligent guys who can be doing with all this 'pc bullshit' that's everywhere (there words)
It's song from an era when people spoke like that, isn't meant to offend I'm sure.

@SI1 how old is your son? Because let's face it if they don't get offended by everything nowadays they aren't living. Apologies if he's older.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 20:50

Sorry for mistakes, who can't their

GreyGardens88 · 17/12/2019 20:55

I'm gay, and although I'm not offended by it I do feel like it encourages casual homophobia as something that is OK. I would rather the word was changed tbh

CSIblonde · 17/12/2019 21:00

Its tricky because the word slut which is really offensive too is there & no one mentions it. I was also a bit 'um...' last year that the Baby it's Cold Outside video showed Tom Jones as the Devil spiking her drink. Its not clear that its a love potion tbh (no sparkly CGI etc as he pours, which maybe theyve since added, haven't seen it this year). That's not how I remembered it so it shows how times change & what we don't pick up on as kids.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 21:05

How does it encourage homophobia?

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 21:05

Freesunglasses sure, especially the bit where they both said exactly the same thing about the PC bullshit. My gay friend and my brother who’s also gay would prefer that the word faggot was not mainstream or seen as acceptable. And I’m not sure how you can do that when that exact word is played, several times daily, for weeks, at Christmas.

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 21:18

The word faggot is not mainstream or acceptable nowadays or then for the purpose of insulting gay people, but the word was used in a brilliant song in a time when we weren't all offended by everything, and the writer has clearly expressed many, many times he wasn't referring to gay people.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 21:29

So? I’ve just asked both my gay friend and my brother who is also gay, and they both said simultaneously ‘the word faggot in any context should not be used on the radio several times a day in the lead up to Christmas, because it reinforces the idea that the word faggot can be used, when it can’t’.

If someone called your kid a faggot, how much time would you spend pondering the context before being offended on his behalf?

Littlepond · 17/12/2019 21:36

It’s a horrible song! I turn it off if it comes
On the radio

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 21:45

If someone called my kid a faggot I'd think they were ignorant and would hope that they would learn as they get older that it isn't a something you go round calling people.

If my child then hears the song and blamed said name calling on that song, I'd explain to my child that In the 80's a man wrote a rather brilliant song which used that word but it wasn't meant to be used in the context of demeaning gay people.

LolaSmiles · 17/12/2019 21:46

I was also a bit 'um...' last year that the Baby it's Cold Outside video showed Tom Jones as the Devil spiking her drink. Its not clear that its a love potion tbh (no sparkly CGI etc as he pours, which maybe theyve since added, haven't seen it this year). That's not how I remembered it so it shows how times change & what we don't pick up on as kids.
I read a brilliant piece on 'Baby it's cold outside' challenging the snowflake argument and it was pointing out that it's not highlighting him trying to push himself onto an unwilling woman, more that they both want to be able to spend the night but she's all too aware of what other people might think because female sexuality was something to be hidden and not enjoyed.

cities971.iheart.com/content/2018-12-03-a-feminist-wrote-why-baby-its-cold-outside-isnt-creepy-mind-blown/

I'm not saying it's the only way to look at it, but it's more interesting than the bandwagon of being offended.

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 21:51

If my child then hears the song and blamed said name calling on that song, I'd explain to my child that In the 80's a man wrote a rather brilliant song which used that word but it wasn't meant to be used in the context of demeaning gay people.

And what if he said *I don’t give a fuck what context it had thirty years ago, now it’s a derogatory term for gay people and people are calling me it’?

Freesunglasses · 17/12/2019 21:58

I'd tell him to tell people calling him it to piss off!
I haven't heard it used for years and I don't know anyone else who has.
I find it more sad that we're all out to find offence in everything nowadays.

I guess we're not going to agree. We both have much loved gay people in our lives who we want to defend but even they have different takes on it. My brother and friend really don't care. Both nearly 50 by the way so maybe of the, not offended by everything generation?

Pumperthepumper · 17/12/2019 22:04

You find the fact people find a gay slur unacceptable less sad than offence?

My friend and brother who is also gay are both 50 and a half, and say ‘why allow a word like Faggot to be played on the radio several times a day for several weeks in the lead up to Christmas if you don’t want your kid using the word, and would be offended if someone called your kid that word, because that would imply you don’t find that word acceptable and yet are trying to justify its usage’.