To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

[WorldsOnFire]

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

So just think if you had,two dc at primary school in wrap around care and having school dinners it would come to about £900

[The property-owning squeezed middle] may not have tons left over every month but that's AFTER they have funnelled money into insulating themselves from actual poverty.

This is true, but they are at huge risk from negative equity, high interest rates, job losses etc. It's easy to forget because the lower middle classes escaped the worst of the last recession, but their lives are more precarious than they look. This is not an academic point as Brexit looms.

YABU.

Class has nothing to do with how much money you have in the bank.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed
I’m really struggling at the moment. My working tax credits have been cut as I have over 16k equity in my property that I can not turn into cash.
Why ? There are no savings limits for tax credits. Only interest over £300 is counted.

This is why all benefits and childcare support should be focussed on working parents with a household income less than 30-35k. It annoys me when these parents (often single parents) can often get less take home pay than parents who have never worked

I think this thread demonstrates the increase in perceived poor. People overstretching is very, very different to not being able to afford the basics in a property that is not suited to purpose, but is all you have. I am not saying that other people don't find it tough to stay within their means, especially in expensive areas when you are stuck between not wanting to private rent but a mortgage is a big push; but it's a bit of an insult to those who are actually poor. I know it's not a competition, but cripes. And no, you wouldn't be considered poor on £60k down south, whoever posted that the streets aren't all gilded with gold down here, and some places are reasonably priced.

It is ridiculous if there are genuine FT workers struggling like this and I agree council tax needs reassessing as do some other things but then it maybe down to life styles that results in some of them being in this boat one of DD’s has a friend who mother I speak to often her partner works FT she’s a SAHM she is always going on about having no money and the cost of things and wont participate in anything that costs money with the school which is only ever a few pounds bar school trips and won’t treat her children to anything when the rest of the children there are getting a treat and all the children have noticed her children don’t even ask anymore little does she realise a family member of mine works FT but then does 3 part time jobs one being a delivery driver for a local take away and he has said her and her partner live on take away from this particular take away and he delivers to there very late most nights of the week and the amount they pay for isn’t cheap by no means and I think if I was buying take away like they do I’d never have any spare money either

@rhubarbcrumbles

There’s an awful lot of £20-£30k jobs in London which aren’t available in the outskirts. Somebody has to do them and it’s certainly not enough to support a decent living in London- ofc some may commute but season tickets can easily be £5-6k.

So what do people in that £20-£30k bracket do if they only available jobs are in London (or a nearby expensive city)?

I think it’s very easy for people who live on £16k a year ... but do it in cheap areas of the midlands/north where they’re lucky enough to have local jobs...to lose sight of the fact that someone earning £10k more than them may be paying £18k more in transport/rent/childcare...etc.

It’s really not always about learning to budget. It’s about incomings vs basic outgoings

Yes, I think so. I am a primary school teacher and I would say most children now have two full time working parents. This means higher childcare costs for breakfast club and after school club. Both have a waiting list at my school. Yet, money is still clearly tight. Two full time working adults should EASILY be able to afford normal life costs.

I think it is housing that is unaffordable. Not sure what the answer is though. Rent control? More council housing?

I’m really struggling at the moment. My working tax credits have been cut as I have over 16k equity in my property that I can not turn into cash.

If that is your main residence then that shouldn't make any difference. If it's a house that you are renting out then that is completely reasonable. Have a look at entitled to about property equity:

www.entitledto.co.uk/help/Own-other-property

There is no such thing as working class/middle class, its rich or poor.

London still needs workers on NMW. How much do you think people serving you in pret are earning or retail assistants, cleaners, HCA, or those in hospitality? Granted they wont be living in central london but the further they move out to find cheaper housing, the more expensive their commute becomes....

Wages are a joke in this country. Looking at job adverts now, they are paying virtually the same as when I was first job hunting 17 years ago.

It’s really not always about learning to budget. It’s about incomings vs basic outgoings

If the rent is more than you earn then you don't live there though do you? If the season ticket plus local rent is more than you earn then you don't do it.

I have lived in London and outside London and commuted in, When I commuted in the higher cost of the season ticket was offset by the higher salary and the cheaper housing. If you are earning 20k-30k in London then you must have some other funds which mean you can pay the rent demanded or you wouldn't be there in the first place unless people are getting into an increasing amount of debt every month just to pay the rent - which will very quickly become unsustainable without things like help to buy or below market rents which is why I say these people are not going to be living in London unless their income is supplemented by private funds or costs reduced by social housing/inherited homes etc.

Jeremy Corbyn for his faults wanted to increase the minimum wage to £10 plus an hour.........and quite rightly. Because why are people who work for massive, profit making companies having to be propped up by the government because they're being held to ransom by zero hour contracts and low wages. It's wrong.

@rhubarbcrumbles

So nobody living in London earns less than £1400 a month? Are you serious?

Of course they do. They are living in studio flats, crappy overcrowded conditions, temporary accommodation. They’re POOR.

The point I am making is that a PP said that £381 a week would not cover the rent. Therefore, using that argument, people with less than £381 a week cannot be living in London as they would not have the money to pay the rent to live there.

Some of it’s a perception of poor or a good life thing...

Car on crazy finance, new build home on stupidly long mortgage, must have the latest phone/clothes/gadgets/things, hobbies with daft costs cause you’ve got to have the best equipment, private school fees or weird activity/club things every night so they’re getting the best etc etc etc.

We see it in our own family, our mortgage is less than a third of our siblings, ours will be paid off before we’re 50, there’s might be by 75. We live half a mile from each other difference being our house was built in the 60’s theirs is brand new same number of bedrooms and we’ve got more “land”. They’ve got a big brand new car and go on the same holiday abroad every year like it’s a religious event.. and are constantly beyond skint.

Obviously sometimes it’s harder to live within your means, central London costs etc, but if the image wasn’t as important to a lot of people £40k wouldn’t be hard up.

If the rent is more than you earn then you don't live there though do you? If the season ticket plus local rent is more than you earn then you don't do it my job outside London is 20k less- move further out zone wise doesn’t save much anymore as commuter belts are expensive and travel goes through the roof. My friends out in Billericay pay £400 a month to travel into work in London- that’s not reasonable by any stretch of the imagination.

I work with someone who is always pleading poverty, she earns the same as me (not a lot) but she's in a double income family with no dependants. The reason she doesn't have much spare money is because she lives in a large house in the most expensive part of town and has a big mortgage. She could downsize and/or move to my side of town and have more money to spend. I suspect she's not willing to make that compromise. I get annoyed listening to her.

There is huge inter generational inequality. I mean you have younger people who can't qualify for a mortgage but paying more in rent. Then you have older people holding most of the property wealth & some people who are incredibly comfortable because they could buy cheap property & rent it to others. I know someone who earns a 40k salary now in his 60s who also owns 12 properties in the SE, bought 20 yrs ago. Who could possibly achieve that now days. I have ex colleagues who made a million pounds selling their home after 5 yrs. Again just not realistic today & the young are having to pay that price. I have neighbours with 300k of equity & good salaries who are on the housing ladder but just can't afford the next step up unless they move further out & commute.

£361 is not enough to live on in London and not be in poverty. That’s my point.

It's ridiculously expensive yes, that's why I left my job in London to work in the home counties. I saved 5k a year on transport so was better off just because of that. My mortgage was less than it would have been in London, my salary was the same even allowing for living just 20 minutes by train outside zone 1.

@Sandaled

I think that perception of poverty is also impacted by expectation though.
When you talk about the difference between ‘true poor’ living with basically nothing in unfit temporary accommodation and reliant on benefits vs someone doing a professional role such as nursing and having nothing left at the end of the month in a basic 2 bed terraced they’re not the same thing you’re correct.
However arguably the professional FT worker has the right to expect more as they have trained/worked 40+ hours per week in a recognised profession to achieve more.

There will always be genuinely ‘poor’ people but (9/10) the ones living hand to moth in squats and bedsits aren’t working 40+ hours in a professional role for that privilege.

It seems like in our society it’s become offensive for people to have expectations of lifestyle for reaching certain career/social levels that were totally normal 30 years ago.

30 years ago a Dr, solicitor, accountant - could reasonably expect to have several holidays a year and privately educate 2 kids.

30 years ago a nurse/electrician/social worker/teacher - could reasonably expect to live comfortably in a nice suburban house (owner) with a nice car and annual holiday.

But it’s not the case nowadays and anybody who comments about that is instantly labelled as terrible because ‘there’s people much worse off than you’ - well yes there is but they’re probably not a Teacher/nurse/solicitor so comparing the two seems a bit unreasonable.