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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

353 replies

WorldsOnFire · 16/12/2019 15:48

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

OP posts:
HeIenaDove · 17/12/2019 00:33

Found this.

www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/opinion/the-charitable-industrial-complex.html

I HAD spent much of my life writing music for commercials, film and television and knew little about the world of philanthropy as practiced by the very wealthy until what I call the big bang happened in 2006. That year, my father, Warren Buffett, made good on his commitment to give nearly all of his accumulated wealth back to society. In addition to making several large donations, he added generously to the three foundations that my parents had created years earlier, one for each of their children to run.

Early on in our philanthropic journey, my wife and I became aware of something I started to call Philanthropic Colonialism. I noticed that a donor had the urge to “save the day” in some fashion. People (including me) who had very little knowledge of a particular place would think that they could solve a local problem. Whether it involved farming methods, education practices, job training or business development, over and over I would hear people discuss transplanting what worked in one setting directly into another with little regard for culture, geography or societal norms

Often the results of our decisions had unintended consequences; distributing condoms to stop the spread of AIDS in a brothel area ended up creating a higher price for unprotected sex.

But now I think something even more damaging is going on.

Because of who my father is, I’ve been able to occupy some seats I never expected to sit in. Inside any important philanthropy meeting, you witness heads of state meeting with investment managers and corporate leaders. All are searching for answers with their right hand to problems that others in the room have created with their left There are plenty of statistics that tell us that inequality is continually rising. At the same time, according to the Urban Institute, the nonprofit sector has been steadily growing. Between 2001 and 2011, the number of nonprofits increased 25 percent. Their growth rate now exceeds that of both the business and government sectors. It’s a massive business, with approximately $316 billion given away in 2012 in the United States alone and more than 9.4 million employed
Philanthropy has become the “it” vehicle to level the playing field and has generated a growing number of gatherings, workshops and affinity groups.

As more lives and communities are destroyed by the system that creates vast amounts of wealth for the few, the more heroic it sounds to “give back.” It’s what I would call “conscience laundering” — feeling better about accumulating more than any one person could possibly need to live on by sprinkling a little around as an act of charity

But this just keeps the existing structure of inequality in place
. The rich sleep better at night, while others get just enough to keep the pot from boiling over. Nearly every time someone feels better by doing good, on the other side of the world (or street), someone else is further locked into a system that will not allow the true flourishing of his or her nature or the opportunity to live a joyful and fulfilled life
And with more business-minded folks getting into the act, business principles are trumpeted as an important element to add to the philanthropic sector. I now hear people ask, “what’s the R.O.I.?” when it comes to alleviating human suffering, as if return on investment were the only measure of success. Microlending and financial literacy (now I’m going to upset people who are wonderful folks and a few dear friends) — what is this really about? People will certainly learn how to integrate into our system of debt and repayment with interest. People will rise above making $2 a day to enter our world of goods and services so they can buy more. But doesn’t all this just feed the beast?

HeIenaDove · 17/12/2019 00:40

Cates is a case in point!!

violinrosa · 17/12/2019 01:39

@Helena

what is the alternative though? For ordinary people who have bils to pay, etc we can't extract ourselves entirely from the monetary system.

HeIenaDove · 17/12/2019 01:50

violin I know. I posted that because it resonated with the MP and the food bank app. Hence the highlighted bits.

DangerMouse17 · 17/12/2019 02:08

Thanks Zzzz19 will have a look into the pension/salary sacrifice suggestion

And no you havent made a bad decision SympatheticSwan, you can only do your best at the end of the day. O think it's a good example for the kids too, so they see how hard parents have to work to provide things. Thanks for sympathising with me though (your username is spot on!).

I too feel like I've not been able to spend loads of time with my child, but it was always to keep my career ticking over in the hope I could get us past the hardship and give us something better...eventually! I have my health, can work - so I will try to be positive about it but that cben letter just took the biscuit.

ThanksForAllTheFish · 17/12/2019 02:16

I think it has a lot to do with high cost of housing and childcare. Many area just don’t have cheap options for either of these things.

That said I did notice a few posts saying x amount of hundreds of pounds into savings each month. So that’s great and saving is a great thing to do if you can but if you can put £500 into savings each month (6k a year) then you are not really poor. You have those funds as a safety net. Being poor is when you pay the bills and have just about enough left to get by. Every penny is budgeted out and there is no spare left to save or buy ‘luxuries’ like take away coffee or even having lunch that isn’t a packed lunch from home.

I think as a society in general we expect much more from our lifestyle than we ever have done in the past. A huge chunk of people drive new cars, or lease cars and swap them every few years. People like to eat out more now than they every have down in the past. Costs of things like concert tickets or cinema tickets have Sky rocketed so less cheap nights out than we’re available previously. Etc.

Then with the massive increased social media presence it’s easy to see how much other people have. To see all the new things they buy, fancy meals, weekend breaks etc. It’s easy to feel poor (even when you technically aren’t) because it appears everyone else is better off and can afford nicer things than you can. I remember before the Facebook/Instagram/ twitter thing really tools off. I would know a friend was away on holiday but didn’t give it much thought but now you get daily updates of the beautiful beach, hotel etc so it’s a constant reminder you can’t afford it. Or I would notice a friend had bought a new pair of shoes and think they are nice but didn’t really think oh they must be better off than me to buy a new pair of shoes. But now you get to see the full shopping spree posts with not only the shoes they bought but all clothes etc and it makes you realise you can’t afford to do that. I suppose what I’m saying is it’s always been there (some people being much better off than others) but it’s now more visible than ever and I think that’s driving a lot of the keep up with the Jones’s attitude these days. I think the middle class are the ones who are more likely to strive for things (new cars, right brands of clothing etc) than other groups. They therefore notice the pinch more as prices keep going up, things to buy to fit in are ever increasing but wages don’t rise at the same rate.

Being properly poor is different. It’s more about hoping you have enough money left at the end of the week to buy milk and bread. Worrying about putting the heating on because it’s expensive. Hoping you child doesn’t outgrow their shoes for at least another couple of months because the cost of new shoes would cripple you financially right now.

Rosehip345 · 17/12/2019 03:19

Childcare makes a massive difference in income but then I think difference in opinion about what are luxuries and what’s necessity is also a huge contributing factor.

For example within my own friendship group we are all qualified individuals, not min wage jobs. Some of my friends ‘struggle’, others don’t. This is because they choose to have cars and furniture on finance, they pay for meals out and getting their hair done etc on credit and this of course adds to their bills. With children it’s much worse as sone parents can’t possibly say no to the latest toy or gadget despite the fact that it will really stretch their budget. These are all choices, and most certainly luxuries.

Other things that are necessity for example rent/mortgage, bills, food etc can also be luxuries. It’s basic maths, if you can afford rent of only £500pm then you find somewhere that costs that and so on. Food can be bulk cooked and shopped for cheaply.

We used to be on £30k joint income and were just fine. We were not entitled to any help as over the threshold but also wouldn’t have felt we needed any. We rented an extremely small flat, that fit us just fine, no luxury about it but we could afford it. Our total rent, bills, fuel, food (everything necessary) came in at about £1500pm. This left enough money to save to pay for us both to retrain.

We have since managed to save enough to buy and live comfortably. I’m still only part time as we now have three children rather than one. Our bills come in at about £2500pm now. I’m aware most of this is luxuries that if needed could be cut down drastically, but what I’m saying is you live to your means no matter how high or low.
A lot of people have either forgotten this or just haven’t been educated by their parents/families to do this.

I also think if you can’t afford to live in London, then don’t. I’ve never been jobless and if you look properly throughout the country there is plenty of work (just look at how many immigrants come over for exactly this reason) you just need to be willing to move to it.
Plus if all the working poor left London, they’d command a higher price for the jobs there as the elite would still need teachers/nurses etc but would have to pay the correct worth to make them want to stay.

kateandme · 17/12/2019 04:01

MistyCloudcruel.why?

stayathomer · 17/12/2019 04:18

I read a thread the other day where someone who seemed quite well off was giving hypothetical advice to a friend on money saving. She said he had life cover and health insurance for his family and th ery were scraping by and should count these as luxuries, she couldn't believe he hadn't. I found th a t very sad. If people overspend on entertainment fair enough, but the guy had 3 kids and she was saying health insurance is frivolous. Health insurance shòuld be a right for all (I have a sister who's in dire straights because she cut her health insurance and a husband who'd be in a wheelchair without it)

GlamGiraffe · 17/12/2019 04:50

As PPs have said I think there is an enormous problem if you are in the south east, especially London. I think it is easy sometimes for people elsewhere in the country not necessarily to be aware quite how big the differences in living expenses are. (Although of course poverty issues are a nationwide phonomrlenon). I am luckily well enough off; my sister isnt so much. She and her husband both work in public sector jobs, she counts every penny and whilst yes she drives s car, it's been in the verge of death for as long as I remember, she needs it to transport her autistic son. There have been several times in the padg when i have bern speaking to my nephew and niece and they have in passing mentioned they have had cereal dinner (which means no other food left apart from shreddies) and mummy isnt hungry today (nothing at all to eat). And how they are having duvet parties (no heating). I've sent a Tesco delivery for them when I've heard because I luckily can afford it. The point is they dont qualify for benefits despite beinv in this situation because they are both working London border prices drain them.

I know someone else, owns her home outright, has a three year old v expensive car, goes on 2 hols a year and pays gof her 17 yr old son and his GF to go on a 5* weeks holiday. She doesnt go to work anymore , nor does her useless piece of work partner, because she now gets benefits, "it's not worth their while". She used to earn a large amount doing an inconvenient job, now she lives comfortably doing nothing.

Theres something wrong . Money is allotted wrongly, they system doesn't work. People who are working and who go without food and clothes so their children can eat something means there is a fundamental issue. Once upon a time my sister would have been considered very middle class and could have easily been a SAHM and afforded to live easily on the wage a husband in his job would earn. Times have definitely changed.

AllideasAndNoAction · 17/12/2019 04:57

YANBU. There is a situation going on and has been for probably 20 years now, where it pays as well to do nothing or work part time as it does to work full time. It’s utter madness and it needs to stop.

Marleyisme · 17/12/2019 05:23

I was one of those whose wage jumped considerably, but ended up with the same amount of money.

But I no longer need to worry them over paying me. Or them stopping it. Or being worse off when I for paid twice in one assesment period. I used to get paid every 4 weeks. On UC the money where you get paid twice, screws you over.

So I am happier earning the money, than claiming it.

AzraiL · 17/12/2019 05:24

YANBU. There is a gradual polarisation of wealth, I sense that over time there will no longer be a middle class - you'll either be rich or poor.

Havaina · 17/12/2019 06:29

Just tried the entitled2 app and it says if I was a single mum to 2 kids in childcare then i would get £2k UC per month. So the UC would effectively pay the childcare. Anecdotally it seems to be about keeping me in work so I can pay mortgage and bills.

SympatheticSwan · 17/12/2019 07:08

Just tried the entitled2 app and it says if I was a single mum to 2 kids in childcare then i would get £2k UC per month. So the UC would effectively pay the childcare.
Please understand me correctly, it is fantastic that help like this exists (and I mean it), but of course everyone can see that this also disincentiveses single mothers to seek higher paid work? £2K/month is equivalent to around +£50K in gross salary equivelent at higher rate band before tax and NI. And childcare is not a luxury or an optional expense.
What completely shocks me is that there is no legal avenue in the UK to make the father pay any contribution to childcare, it is considered a frivolous expense from the mother's side.

WorldsOnFire · 17/12/2019 07:14

I tried the entitled to app and found that if I didn’t have DH and dropped to PT hours with DS- I would have more money than I do now- by £200 per month.

And that’s taking into account my DH earning almost £70k (again he only receivers £38k pa that’s 55% of his actual wage).

So I would be better off financially being a single mum working pt that working ft and handing a DH who is a high earner 👍🏻

OP posts:
malificent7 · 17/12/2019 07:25

Well i am a student in universal crefit and it is tough BUT i can afford good food for us ( i dont eat much meat so it saves cash) and i use my student loan to cover rent.
When i qualify i should start on £24-26, 000.pa so will be much better off.

beguilingeyes · 17/12/2019 07:36

Wages need to rise...a lot. When I started work (early 80s) the average CEO earned 50 x his average workers salary. Now it can be 1250 x. This can't go on surely, but I see no sign of an end to it. Victorian levels of income disparity are upon us.

People in full time employment should be able to live and eat on their salaries.

formerbabe · 17/12/2019 07:36

We own our home but out of interest, I just had a look online to see rents in my area. The cheapest 3 bedroom flat (not house!) in my unfashionable part of suburban London is £1600 a month.

So a family on £40k...2500 a month take home, would have £900 a month left over for bills, travel, food, everything. Council tax would be about £150 a month...then gas, water, electric, commuting costs. Yes, you'd feel very poor on that.

beguilingeyes · 17/12/2019 07:39

I work in banking. Everyone used to (the 80s again) get an annual pay rise..as a matter of course. They called it the cost of living rise and then you'd get things like Christmas bonus.

Then they brought in the wheeze of 'performance related pay' which basically meant they didn't have to give you a pay rise at all if they didn't want to. How did they manage to get that one past everybody?

Mrscog · 17/12/2019 07:40

@SympatheticSwan it’s not equivalent to 50K, it’s about 35k equivalent.

Mrscog · 17/12/2019 07:43

@beguilingeyes raising wages massively would do nothing - it would just inflate the cost of living again. What is needed is for government investment to decrease the cost of living - cheaper housing, energy and food costs. People need to get used to more boring more plant based diets - this huge variety of loads of foods available is a massive luxury and environmentally unsustainable.

shinynewapplesonachristmastree · 17/12/2019 07:50

A lot of good points by @Graphista

malificent7 · 17/12/2019 07:53

I think thecreason why there has been a right wing surge is due to the fact that the middle feel squeezed.Squeezed people dont want to pay more tax and therefore resent so called "lazy" people who have lots of kids ( mostly single mums ). It is scape goating tbh. Not the squeezed middle's fault but the political elite who want to maintain the class system for their own financial benefit.

Dontdisturbmenow · 17/12/2019 07:56

The problem is that too many parents consider their wealth at that particular time, rather than considering their opportunistic wealth.

I worked FT whilst raising two little kids, no maintenance, and yes, by the time I'd paid childcare, mortgage (before interest rate went down), the car, commuting, and everything else, I had very little disposable income. I had a friend at the time who was on benefits with the interest on her mortgage being paid (whilst her property gained massively in equity), and as she was getting maintenance from her ex, she had only about £20 less disposable income than me and a much better lifestyle. Of course it felt very unfair at the time and it was tempting to pack my job in.

However, I always looked forward and knew that my choice would pay off long term and it did. I remember when my eldest started secondary school and the childcare (breakfast/afterschool/holidays) reduced. Then 2 years later, my youngest started too and suddenly I had all that money I'd paid in childcare as addition disposable income. I genuinely felt like I'd won the lottery. With that came a promotion, and for the first time in many years, I was able to enjoy a comfortable life, which only got better. The mortgage is now paid, and I am in a position to consider reducing my hours, or paying more in my pension so I can consider retiring earlier. Having such options and being in control of my finances is a massive boost to my happiness.

I think families would be much happier if they consider long term plans rather than just what they could do right there and then with more money. As it's been pointed out, a starting salary for a teacher or nurse, is not great, but it certainly gets quite good after 5 years or so.

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