To think many working/middle class are now ‘poor’?

[WorldsOnFire]

Inspired by the ‘People are terrible Scrooge’s who clearly don’t want to help the poor’ explosion on MN recently I read an article about a single mother on UC ‘left in tears’ as she ‘only’ had £60 left for Christmas. (Many similar threads recently about tight Christmas budgets so a lot of people in similar boats).

What shocked me was the hundreds of comments from FT working professionals - nurses, teachers, tradesmen, IT professionals, social workers... the list goes on. All jobs earning £20K+ and many with two adults in one home, all saying they were in the same (some even worse) situations. They receive no help as they earn too much but the cost of living is so high they can’t afford to heat their homes and pay their mortgages/childcare 😦. I find this shocking!

It sounds like those who don’t work/work PT (for whatever reason- not here to debate right/wrong of UC 🙄) are topped up by UC whilst those working FT aren’t and actually there’s not much difference at the end of the month.

AIBU to think that the whole country maybe aren’t terrible Scrooge’s and in reality the working/lower middle class who used to give to ‘the poor’ are now becoming The Poor and therefore are less compassionate/willing to help?

Excuse the typos 😣

What is it called then I thought it was tax element

They do take it into account they sent me forms for me to fill out on my mortgage details and I had to send them my mortgage statement

The entitled website and turn to us give me two different answers and it does not equate with what UC work their entitlements to (which seems to be a mystery little like child Tax credits) now I’ve just redone it and apparently I should be getting £28 a week - never had that figure before

Are people aware after a year of being switched over to UC savings are taken into account for some elements of payments - I doubt it. If you switch over they take them into account straight away

I have been over and over the paperwork, sat in he Job Centre nothing is wrong with my paperwork and the breakdown sent figure were correct

If I wasn’t working I believe i would be entitled to full housing and council tax benefit

I couldn't really afford to lose 225 a month

WorldsOnFire that's a hell of a lot compared to many people. Friend of a friends husband earns that amount without any weekend or holiday work. I earn 22k for 40hrs a week plus being on call 24/7.

And no it’s not a shared ownership property

I bought a house less than ten years ago for 190k...I no longer own it but know it's now worth about 450k. The job I was doing at the time still pays the same today (although I no longer do it)..the wages haven't increased at all yet the house has more than doubled.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

How can you be entitled (if you were hypothetically not working) to full housing benefit/UC housing element- when you wouldn’t be paying rent as you have a mortgage

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed

You haven't answered the question...do you live in the house you own?

Yes I have already answered - yes I do

No other properties, savings, it’s not shared ownership

I would be entitled to HB because my mortgage is interest only (not that I am planning to not work)

Working families tax credit was brought in by Blair after the 1997 victory. It replaced the old family credit which was given to low income working families. They also ended lone parent benefit.

Then in 2003 WFTC was changed to child tax credit and working tax credit.

You can’t apply for HB any longer

You have to apply for UC and the housing element

Unless you’re in temp accommodation, pension age, special needs

When I first qualified as a mental health nurse, I was working a 30 hour a week contract, often topping it up to full time by picking up overtime. At the end of the month, after tax and NI, my base monthly wage was around the £1350 mark. I received no help (which I'm not complaining about) and as a single person, I had to pay full rent, household bills, car, petrol etc. I was left with very little at the end of the month. In comparison, many of my patients who I used to assist with financial issues and who claimed benefits were on more money than me when their housing benefit, council tax benefit on top of the money in the account every month was taken into account. Obviously I would never begrudge anyone benefits who genuinely needed help and I worked hard on many an occasion to help my patients access what they were rightfully entitled to. But yes, often it's the low paid who suffer the most financially in society.

Ok the housing element of UC

I didn’t directly apply for that. I filled in the online forms (as advised as I was no longer claiming childcare costs) my working tax credit had been totally messed up (I might actually be in for a back payment but not holding my breath) took into job centre as requested, they asked for more details on mortgage handed in as requested. Informed I would get £53 a month a few days later reviews and would receive £0

Appealed and went over with UC advisor at job centre

All my forms have shown I have excess of £16k so that counts some figures out - and no remortgaging recently

I would like it to be different and I don’t think people are aware that being switched over and you switching over makes a difference to what is taken into account (first one being savings ignored for the first year)

Mlou32

I work in MH - yes some are getting more money in their hands than most have once rent/mortgage is paid it’s not quite right

But I would rather be in my position that theirs

But those working (or anyone) shouldn’t have to struggle to make ends meet

The thing is though, those struggling with a high mortgage now, will have a valuable asset in the future. Whereas those of us renting, or even getting help with our rent, won’t have that. So it’s short term pain for long term gain.

Enthusiasm yes, they're probably on higher benefits but also have 24, empty days to fill 7 days a week and often have to.pay to access services.

My son has severe, SN. He's never going to be independent and requires a lot of care. He'll be going onto UC soon. Out of that he has to pay towards his transport to his specialist college (( 60 miles away as no provision locally )) if we want respite he has to pay towards it at 2 / 1. Has to pay to access any courses or classes to keep his brain ticking over hell, if he wants to do voluntary work he'll have to pay towards staff supporting him and just generally making sure he has a fulfilling life without work.

We've been told to apply for community health funding so some of it will be covered but tbh they've narrowed the margins so much it won't happen........it's becoming like pip. As in people in extreme circumstances are being turned away for ridiculous reasons.

@EnthusiasmIsDisturbed something has gone wrong somewhere @babyroobs maybe you can advise?

No they pay our very little (in hostels) and most are incredibly tight with their money until it comes to take aways

I don’t blame them - yes they have cash and a comfortable amount to live on but really the struggles they face this just makes it a little easier for them. Unfortunately it’s not the same for every vulnerable person that needs financial support some are left with a pitiful amount

Thank you MyDc. My circumstances are changing very soon I should be a little better off. Dealing with UC has been so stressful it impacted my health (and took longer than 5 weeks)

FoamingAtTheUterus

My moaning is pathetic it’s really nothing. I’m truly sorry your ds isn’t getting the support he deserves. It’s not right. I wonder who make these decisions why some areas are so much better funded than others why on assessments there isn’t room for common sense. Sounds as though he is determined and I hope he gets every bit of support he needs

DH earns 32K which is an ‘average’ salary (I think?) but it’s not enough to support a family of 4 and there is no entitlement to tax credits or any help with school dinners/trips/clubs and so on that some of my lower-income friends get. I work 20 hours per week minimum wage to top us up so we can afford the basics plus a bit extra to have an okay standard of living. I’m very thankful for the 30 free nursery hours for 2 working parents.

A few years ago our income jumped from £18k to £31k because of a career change/ new job. But our disposable income went down! We got well over £100pwk in tax credits before but when the income jumped this dropped. Then after tax NI, pension, student loan deductions, travel to work costs for longer commute we were no better off! So it annoys me when people on low incomes see high incomes and think they must be better off- we thought that too but it’s not how it works!

Yes we found this too, husbands wage increased from 20k to 32k but with the generous tax credits top-ups completely gone it wasn’t as much of a wage rise. Factor in the other extras and it definitely didn’t feel like a 12k pay rise.

This was a while ago though I don’t know whether the tax credits system is still the same now after all the changes to the benefit system.

I’d be interested in knowing their actual income and outgoings.

Several times on mn alone I’ve entered discussions with people claiming to be struggling, mainly giving as much advice as I can because I’ve been operating on a tight budget almost my whole adult life and so I’m pretty good at spotting where and how to cut back and am a good bargain hunter/haggler/deal finder...

...only for it to turn out the op is simply extravagant in some way and unwilling to make the sacrifices necessary to achieve their aim!

I’m not saying people can’t spend as they wish (providing not incurring debt) but don’t fritter away on crap AND then moan you’ve no money for something else you want.

I have anecdotal stories from my experience of sitting in a meeting with a person claiming they need to be housed by the council and yet they had chosen to buy a car that cost them over £400 a month exactly the kind of thing I’m talking about! That’s more than rent for a 2 bed round here!

@iwouldprefernotto - sorry but £500 a month for luxuries emergencies IS a lot! You are certainly not poor!

I agree with @waxonwaxoff0 op, £40k is NOT “poor”, living/working in central London, having however many kids is a choice. Another thread recently about the ridiculously frequent claims of “my job doesn’t exist outside London” showed that really it’s just an excuse to try and justify WANTING to live and work in London - a valid choice but it needs to be recognised and acknowledged as such.

“Like I think it’s ridiculous that if your on the dole you get free nursery hours from aged 2 but if you work it’s from aged 3...surely it should be the other way round!” Why not from age 2 for both?

From having a play around on benefits calculators the govt seems to think a 2 parent family with 2 high school age (so not usually needing childcare) kids need around £30k to live on - if they’re working. £19k if job seeking.

I’d say that’s about right for the majority of people in the Uk, I do understand living costs vary around the country but then there are people living in London and other expensive areas (London doesn’t have the monopoly on this!) who are on benefits, working part time or full time on a low wage.

“I think it's a disgrace that people who work full time have to get UC at all to have enough(ish) money to live on. The minimum wage is a joke right now and it looks like it won't be changing for these people anytime soon.” Totally agree. A full time job SHOULD pay enough to live on without top ups from the govt, those top ups aren’t really benefitting the recipients - they’re increasing the profits for their employers! Large, very profitable companies are taking the piss paying nmw.

I’d love to know if any posters claiming they’re “struggling”
Could manage on £19k for a family of 4?!

Housing prices IS a major issue and those problems go back AT LEAST as far as thatcher and “right to buy”. Personally (and I’ve said this many times so you may well have read it before) we need to ban MPs from being landlords or property developers - far too many are (of all colours!) and they vote on policies on housing in ways that benefit landlords and property developers NOT tenants and ordinary home buyers. It’s a MASSIVE conflict of interest and shouldn’t be allowed.

We NEED a massive social housing building policy, this would not only bring prices down but provide housing, provide jobs and stimulate the economy. It won’t happen precisely because it’s in too many MPs PERSONAL FINANCIAL INTERESTS to keep housing costs high.

“I went self employed, got married and moved all in the space of 18 months.”
Which as you say yourself was your CHOICE nobody made you!

Truly poor people can’t even access borrowing!

@crazybunnylady I’m not normally a fan of “only the better off should have kids” comments but I have to agree with @Catkin8 if you’re having months you can’t afford food it seems nonsensical to have another child. And FYI you can be a mum AND work plenty of us have done that - inc as single mums!

“the lifestyle and security a profession could expect 20/30 years ago has just melted away” one point you may find interesting in recently read that (iirc can’t find the link right now) in the 60’s a ceo earned on average 2-3 times what their lowest paid employee earned - now it’s (I remember this one!) 150 times their lowest paid employee - that’s insane and frankly pure greed!!

Nobody NEEDS millions to live on they just don’t!

“Why aren't more people becoming childminders if childcare costs are so astronomical? I heard on the news last week that the numbers of registered childminders are falling dramatically. Surely it could be a good source of income for many.”

Childcare costs are high for a reason. I’ve been a childminder it’s highly regulated (far more so now than even when I was doing it) they’re really not making big profits but they DO need to cover costs which includes things like public liability insurance, increased car insurance, car seats, maintaining their home including child proofing to a standard required by the authorities to stay registered, registration (by which I also include things like maintaining first aid, health and safety, food hygiene, early years education and other qualifications), police/background check, replacing toys/books/spare clothing/spare nappies, wipes etc, associated transport costs... plus they still have to pay tax and NI just like any other worker - there seems to be the perception that what parents pay childminders is pure profit!!

Nurseries costs are slightly lower as there’s economy of scale comes into that to some degree, but we seem to begrudge in this country the people who care for our children a decent living wage.

Re child benefit and similar rules - I’ll think you’ll find it’s to “encourage” people being in 2 parent families - essentially misogyny and punishing single mums as most single parent families are headed by women.

If it were “admin” the cheapest and easiest way to administrate these things is no means testing and/or as few rules as possible.

See also the “rape clause” and 2 child limit - that limit only applies to the nrp - mostly women! Men can quite easily have 2 children with one woman, leave and have another 2 with someone else (and so on and so on...) but benefits can be paid for all his children regardless how many he has. Don’t even get me started on being able to pay less child maintenance because of living with someone else’s kids!

“If we, as I think the eighth richest country in the world had poverty like existed 100 years ago then it would be a disgrace.” We do! We have children living in storage containers or in cars, going without food, warm clothes...

A friend of mine is a teacher (quite a few of my friends and family are) and her school are doing a scheme providing food for kids to take home for over the Christmas holidays I think a few schools are doing this, some are opening over the holidays to provide a warm place with food for children to go and YES it IS a fucking disgrace in a wealthy, supposedly well governed country (and I absolutely blame ALL parties for this - there isn’t nearly enough outrage about this)

I’m fortunate dd has never had to go without but certainly as a single mum when she was younger, even when I was working I had to at times in order to ensure she didn’t.

What bugged/bugs me about the “better off in work” calculations the dwp (and cab - they are FAR too enmeshed with dwp for my liking) is they never and still don’t account for the COSTS of working especially those first few months - waiting on first payday (which can often be 6 weeks not a month depending how their payroll system works) and childcare are the big ones but also transport, lunches (even if you’re getting stuff to make a packed lunch it’s different to what you’d be able to stretch out at home), clothes and shoes, even daft stuff like pens (some employers are unbelievably stingy and expect staff to supply this type of basic equipment themselves even though it’s for work!), umbrellas, bags... until you get to a point you’re stocked up and pay is working right it can be a real struggle and it’s this that puts a LOT of single parents off returning to work because their income is the only one for their household.

You used to get allowed an “overlap” on certain benefits to allow for a settling in period but that’s been massively reduced and on some benefits has been removed altogether.

Personally even if the benefits continued to be paid for 6 months as an interest free long term loan I think that would mean a lot of people would feel much less anxious about returning to work.

Agree internet is NOT a luxury, you need it for EVERYTHING now, including claiming benefits!

I’m housebound I’d be utterly screwed without internet! Dd is older (almost 19) but certainly the latter part of her high school years the school did everything online and all the schools where I live that’s the case now - homework, school lunches, communicating with parents and pupils and I’m in a deprived area!