AIBU that an independent Scotland ill have to have a hard border to ensure the rest of the UK keeps control of its borders when Scotland joins theEU

[monstiebags]

Whilst I totally agree that Scotland has the right to become independent, it seems to me that they want to push though a vote without telling the people how they expect to fund themselves, what currency they will use and what trading agreement they expect to have with the UK. I really think that these things should be made clear to the rest of the UK before they are allowed their rightful vote - A weak Scotland using our currency could drag us all down with them and a soft border would encourage the continued uncontrolled migration to England via Scotland. AIBU

Is the share based on - what each party brought into the union? The current population or land area. I'm genuinley interested btw rather than trying to say aha. I know its all much more carefully thought about than the eu debacle so om hoping someone knows

*Streetwisehercules we borrow against our assets, that's how it works.

If you leave the UK you don't get to take Sterling, even the SNP have acknowledged this.

I love Scotland and wish in some ways it was different but 60% of the national debt this year was Scottish. You would face austerity for many years to pay off what you owe. You wouldn't be able to join the EU until you do pay it off unless they change the rules (they won't as it would give hope to Catalonia)

There cannot legally be a crossover period for Sterling either, your new currency would have to be up and running for the day you leave the UK.

@Harpingon

You're totally wrong. There is absolutely nothing legally stopping one country from using the currency of another. Plenty of countries use the dollar despite having no currency union with the U.S. it just means that they have no control over the setting of interest rates etc. Any country can use any currency they fancy with no currency union; they just dont have any control over it. Scotland would just need to accept monetary policy coming from the bank of England.

Read this for more info
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-scotland-44256059

We wouldn't get to "take sterling" and set our own rates etc. But we can keep using it.

Whether or not that's a good idea is debatable, but we wouldn't need to create our own currency if it wasnt a main concern.

The SNP share of the vote actually FELL in this election, from 50% to 45%. Therefore they have NO mandate for another independence referendum. The majority of Scots don't want one.
Secondly, in the (unlikely) event of independence, all Scotland's major banks and financial institutions would have to move to London.
Scotland can not afford to underwrite them as lender of last resort, and they would have to move to retain the Bank of England as their safety net.
RBS alone has £74 billion of assets, and their CEO has stated publicly they'd have no choice but to move.
That means Scotland loses any share of the corporation tax paid by one of its major industries - financial services.
Scotland has no currency or the reserves to set up a central bank.
It could either use another country's currency - say sterling, or US dollars - but with no control at all over interest rates or exchange rates, as a sort of vassal state, or it could waste billions of taxpayers money to set up a new currency - the groat maybe - with all the expense of a mint, printing costs, changing every slot machine in the country, and floating the groat on the international money markets as an untried and low value currency, making imports horribly expensive.
After three years of using this currency, if we had managed to survive the savage austerity required to cut our deficit to acceptable EU levels, we could apply to join the EU. And be forced, as a new member, to adopt the Euro - thus costing more billions to change all our currency yet again.

Good luck trying to sell that to anyone with a brain!

If you want to get closer to the truth of how 'valid' an independent Scotland might be I think you'd do well to look at the Tory/English response to the idea of independence and another referendum. They're not exactly as relaxed about the prospect of Scotland going it alone as you think they might be if Scotland was the net drain on resources some claim. I mean, it's Brexit time! It's all change and brave little UK plc is throwing off all the shackles, those pesky hand-fed Scots want to go it alone, it's the ideal time to get rid of them and keep their massive handouts -right?

The only facts we can all agree on I guess are that Scotland isn't even a small country in terms of size and population, with two major international cities and their infrastructure already in place. It's impossible to know or predict how tough it would be for Scotland in the transition period and probably a decade afterwards as everything you'll read has been spun one way or the other, plus it would depend on political wrangling to know the terms of an exit deal or whatever - but we do know that Scotland on paper - well there's just no reason why not.

Also, this EU membership thing. I really think that folk south of the border need to turn that one on its head.

It ISN'T so much (for me certainly, and a good few other folk I've spoken to) that people in a large part want independence because they don't want to be 'dragged out' of the EU.

It's just as much because with the UK not being part of the EU any more, suddenly this 'union' becomes (to many, many Scots) something it's really not worth being a part of any more.

Pretty soon the UK will almost certainly be starting off on a hugely long period of financial and social uncertainty. Just one country, not a member state. And moreover, one country which has pretty much nailed its colours to the mast as more right wing, less socialist, pretty unpleasantly reactionary and in thrall to its absolutely disgusting press. I think a lot of Scots feel EU or not, why the hell would they want to now be in an increasingly unequal 'partnership' with a country like this when they don't even get EU membership out of it?! What's the point?! Add the fact that the prime minister of this country is quite frankly a person completely unfit to hold any public office and - well, it's shameful.

The Tory party, I may dislike them extremely but the degree to which they now represent the press, the rich and the charlatans is something else, and a significant part of the UK electorate are just fine with that. They're just fine with having a liar and a crook in charge. That's so shocking. I think we are in for a period where it will only become more and more important to Scots to not be a part of this very broken system any longer whether they are able to rejoin the EU or not.

If you leave the UK you don't get to take Sterling

I don't think that has ever been suggested. Who would think that the country leaving would be the one to 'take' the currency? What an odd assertion.

your new currency would have to be up and running for the day you leave the UK

That is literally bullshit. We can use any currency we want. Of course there are issues. Unless there is a formal agreement, we can't print our own notes for a different currency, and it would be unlikely that without either our own currency or a formal agreement to use a different currency, that we would be able to join the EU, for example. But we can continue to use sterling if we want.

And don't take the 60% deficit figure too seriously. Here's why www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2019/08/21/whatever-gers-reports-today-its-important-to-remember-its-still-crap-or-a-completely-rubbish-approximation-to-the-truth/

The way GERS calculates the deficit assignment has been getting questioned for years. It's not fit for purpose and doesn't actually analyse the figures or sort anything out. We didn't generate 60% of the deficit but, depending what the government want to show, it can be made to look like that.
We could totally have generated loads of the deficit, but the problem is that they way they analyse it just doesn't give the real picture. Without proper analysis, any discussion on it is pointless.

The SNP share of the vote actually FELL in this election, from 50% to 45%. Therefore they have NO mandate for another independence referendum. The majority of Scots don't want one

Brilliant!

On that basis, the Tories, with 43.6% of vote share have no mandate for Brexit! Great news.

(BTW I know many Scottish Labour voters that are now fully on board with independence, having been vehemently unionist during the referendum. I don't think you can categorically state what the majority of Scots do or do not want. In the UK general election prior to the independence referendum, the SNP had less than 20% of votes in Scotland, yet 45% of Scots that voted, voted for independence. And actually, their vote share has gone up from 36% in the last general election)

I totally, totally agree with Scotland having the right to become independent from the UK. After all, England has voted to leave Europe, so why should we sand in the way of what they want.

However........I do think Scotland should wait a couple of years before the 2nd referendum. Why leave now? How is that in their interests? Just say the UK leaves Europe and we suddenly start to prosper and it looks like we have done the right thing. Why wouldn't Scotland want to stay in that?

Any use of Sterling after the separation of Scotland with the UK would have to be agreed through negotiations with the remaining UK countries. (from the SNP Referendum articles) If not agreed it would be illegal.
For many reasons the UK would be unlikely to agree. Scottish banks would likely leave Scotland RBS have already said they would have no choice but to move to London.

Just say the UK leaves Europe and we suddenly start to prosper and it looks like we have done the right thing. Why wouldn't Scotland want to stay in that?

Harpingon - I would love to see some proof that it would be illegal to use sterling without express agreement. Any chance of that being provided, seeing as I can't find anything suggesting that is remotely a thing?

Any use of Sterling after the separation of Scotland with the UK would have to be agreed through negotiations with the remaining UK countries.

But would there be a UK? Scotland leaving would be the break up of the UK. There's this assumption that because most key elements of the economy are based within the English area that they somehow belong more to England. Do they? If the union was broken by Scotland leaving and everything needing to be redrawn, it's no more England's currency to keep than Scotland's to take. The pound isn't English.

“ As long as you take your share of the national debt too!”

And our share of the UK’s assets. Will do!

If not agreed it would be illegal.

and presumably just as illegal for England to keep using the UK currency too once the current Union was no longer valid, so I'm sure that would all get sorted out very very quickly!

Just say the UK leaves Europe and we suddenly start to prosper and it looks like we have done the right thing. Why wouldn't Scotland want to stay in that?

The UK leaving Europe is a geographic impossibility.

Just say the UK leaves Europe and we suddenly start to prosper and it looks like we have done the right thing. Why wouldn't Scotland want to stay in that?

I mean. Yeah, all the issues associated with Scotland and England bring SO different politically would just disappear when all the wealth post Brexit starts rolling in, in the two years post separation.

I mean, I'm convinced.

RBS have already said they would have no choice but to move to London.

Given Brexit, it's ridiculous to even quote something like that. We're in totally uncharted territory - by the time independence actually came to pass, if it did, moving to London might be an entirely pointless move for any bank.

The rest of the UK is by far the biggest trading partner of Scotland 45billion compared to 12billion with the whole of the rest of the EU. You will be paying to trade if you separate. Your goods will become more expensive. Also you don't have the infastucture for increasing trade with Europe, you would have to pay to use UK ports etc.

Didn't take this thread to generate into insults. Spot @Travis1. All the Scotland bashing recently is very tiresome.

The rest of the UK is by far the biggest trading partner of Scotland 45billion compared to 12billion with the whole of the rest of the EU. You will be paying to trade if you separate. Your goods will become more expensive. Also you don't have the infastucture for increasing trade with Europe, you would have to pay to use UK ports etc

Not entirely accurate figures, but I'm not too concerned as the point is valid. And we know this. And many of us think it is a price worth paying in order to be able to shape our own future.

You know, much in the way someone would leave a relationship that wasn't working any more, and be a bit worse off, but it's worth it. Even when the other person thinks everything it totally fine. Pretty much exactly that.

Just a little reminder that scotland is leaving northern ireland and wales in this scenario. Their currency too!

*jeezypeeps read the SNP referendum proposal. The UK would consist of Wales, Northern Ireland and England. As the SNP have stated themselves they would need to negotiate with the UK to use Sterling. It's pointless thinking we would want to link it to an unstable economy.