Tell me the good things about Johnson's Brexit plans...

[thehorseandhisboy]

With it looking like a Tory majority, and Johnson's intention to 'get Brexit done' (in a different way to the way he 'got it done' in October), I'm trying to understand how a hard Brexit, possible a no deal Brexit, will be the saviour of the country that the Conservatives believe that it will be.

What benefits will a hard Brexit bring to the people of the UK?

I am very confident that my main reason for wanting the UK to leave the EU will soon be realised.

It can be described in two words:

Smaller State

When the UK leaves the EU, we will have 73 fewer state-employed politicians as well as all their support staff.

I am looking forward to the next decrease in the size of the UK state - the reduction in the number of MPs from 650 to 600 (and the associated boundary changes). Hopefully these changes will be implemented in the next year or two - well in time for the next general election!

I am a very happy bunny at the moment

How will a ‘smaller state’ benefit the UK in terms of the economy, trade, health, schooling etc?

When the UK leaves the EU, we will have 73 fewer state-employed politicians as well as all their support staff.

We will be employing tens of thousands (at least) more people to work in border control, customs and the civil service to undertake checks and to oversee all the regulation which was previously undertaken by the EU, to oversee and implement new trade deals, and god knows what else.

The state has already expanded to deal with Brexit, and it will continue to do so.

It’s almost darkly comical that GCAcademic had to point this out.

The theme of this thread is like a bad bbc2 tragedy. On about 2pm,when no one's home.
Except its real life.
No one can say a good word about brexit.

I'm in NI, so it might be good for us if we get special status and the terrorists behave themselves.

SquireOfGreenway can I ask what you mean by "smaller state" specifically in relation to healthcare?

Do you mean:
a) less healthcare
b) the same or more healthcare, but paid for privately
or
c) the same or more healthcare, paid for by state-collected taxation but provided by private for-profit providers

Or does your "smaller state" not apply to healthcare at all?

It's just that quite often people who say "smaller state" actually mean "use state mechanisms to efficiently and compulsorily take payment from people, then give that money to private for-profit companies chosen by the state."

Which potentially gives worst of all worlds to the consumer... but is obviously very nice for Virgin, Serco, G4S and the other farmers of government contracts.

The theme of this thread is like a bad bbc2 tragedy. On about 2pm,when no one's home.
Except its real life.
No one can say a good word about brexit.

Just a guess, but this might have something to do with the fact that at this point we don’t actually have to explain the benefits of Brexit to a group of people who have absolutely no interest in hearing them. We get it: you’ll either dislike or hate what will happen over the next few months (and possibly years) and I’m sorry you feel like that. But the mood is changing. People have had enough of the argument, it’s increasingly irrelevant, and all our lives will carry on much as they are now.

Have a bit of faith in the people of this country. It might just turn out that the majority was right.

@jillyhilly

We are worried. Reassure us.

Jilly but what ARE the benefits of Brexit? After all these years no-one has ever explained what they are.

I can’t, StarShop, I’m sorry, but I really do understand the worry and the dread that things are going to be awful because I’ve been there myself. To be honest it was a massive journey for me to travel from Remainer to Leaver (or at least Leave Accepter!), with lots of reading and listening and talking and trying to understand, and I just don’t think I can explain the whole thing here.

I’ve also had too many discussions in which people say they want to understand, but actually just want to tear everything you say apart in order to make themselves feel better. It’s too tiring to do all that again, and whether I do or not will make no difference to what’s going to happen anyway.

Sorry I can’t be more helpful, and I honestly hope you will not to worry too much. We are a good country full of reasonable people, despite what some people seem to think. It will be ok.

Lol. " I can't tell you cos you wouldn't understand/ agree/ believe". Yeah that's a good one.

I want to start by saying that I am a remainer and voted Labour.

I really did not expect, nor consider the possibility of a huge Tory majority, though now that it has happened I do hope that a few things may come of it:

Firstly, Brexit is now inevitable whether we like it or not. The discussion has been had a million times over and we lost. We do need now to move to the next phase.

Secondly, I hope that the stranglehold from the ERG and co is now of no consequence, and that we might see a more moderate version of Brexit than would have been needed to appease the Hard Brexiteers. I hope that Johnson is vain enough to want to be remembered as a good PM, and will therefore avoid some of the more suicidal Brexit policies. Though I believe we will inevitably be worse off, I hope that there can be a closer relationship with our neighbours than Farage and his cronies would like.

Thirdly, I hope that Labour is now able to have a real overhaul and become a credible opposition force in time for 2024. A party that the average, largely-disinterested-in-politics type person can get behind. They need to stop sneering at the people who once would have voted for them in their millions, and drop the Corbyn project.

Lol. " I can't tell you cos you wouldn't understand/ agree/ believe". Yeah that's a good one.

And that response is exactly why I won’t get into these discussions any more.

Have a good time in your inward-looking little bubble “trying to understand”.

I can only think of one good thing. It has upset the Democratic Unionist Party, who for far too long have been indulged whenever they say 'no' (they only say yes in public at their weddings).

Leaving in general has only the good side of Nigel Farage and the other Brexit Party MEPs being out of a job.

Person B- why?
Person A - I can't tell you, you're too immature, just believe me, I'm right.
Person B- That's ridiculous.
Person A- SEE! SEE! You're just so immature!

I was just looking at the list of Free Trade agreements that the EU has negotiated on our behalf and what markets we have access to:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_free_trade_agreements

How will we even get close to this? These were all negotiated from a position of strength and everyone knows that when trade deals are negotiated it is the more powerful partner that dictates terms. We'll be negotiating as a country with no manufacturing base, a country that doesn't even produce enough food to feed its own citizens (we import 50% of everything we eat) and a country whereby one of our biggest industries (banking and services) will be upping sticks and moving to Frankfurt and Paris. We won't be able to negotiate the kind of deals that have been negotiated with Canada and Japan.

Brexiteers seem to think a trade deal with the US is the answer which is quite ironic because TTIP (a trade deal between the US and EU) was actually canned as it would negatively impact EU citizens, it was actually used as a reason to leave the EU by the Vote Leave campaign. Brexiteers usually think the US has got our back and we will be better off as a nation but anyone who has worked alongside Americans should know they don’t operate like that, they will only look out for the interests of themselves - the 'special relationship' is a term of endearment usually used by nostalgic Brits who think about the war a lot. Boris’s deal even removes workers rights from the withdrawal agreement so any trade deal with the US will include workers rights harmonisation and regulatory alignment. Why would anyone want this? Your average American worker is lucky to get 10 days annual leave, they work bank holidays and they have 'at-will' employment meaning there is no such thing as notice periods and redundancy pay

Without aligned workers rights and environmental protections, we will be far cheaper than our European neighbours though - giving the uk the flexibility to wheel and deal, in a way that I’d not open to our European neighbours. There are definite concrete upsides - just not ones that many people want to admit to.

It’s a tricky one though, because if you opt for the low road in terms of legislative protections for your citizens, there’s always a country that is prepared to go lower than you.

But as pps like Jilly say, optimism and positivity is absolutely key here. Whatever happens, we need to believe now that we are on an exciting journey. And even if we don’t believe it, we must shut up and act as if we believe it, because we are boring old Cassandras now.

Jillyhilly I am actually very keen to understand.

I voted remain but appreciate that the majority vote was leave.

I've always been completely against the idea of running yet another referendum.

So, I'm actually very keen to understand what the benefits of Johnson's Brexit will be. There must be some, because millions of people voted for it.

Like richdeniro, I had looked into the trade agreements negotiated by the EU and cannot see how Britain will be able to negotiate anything vaguely comparable, certainly not within the year.

So it was a genuine question, asked in the spirit of wanting to feel some sense of hope.

I can't not 'worry too much' - it really scares me. That's why I started this thread.

@GCAcademic

Like so many other Remainer arguments, you sound to me a bit like Sir Humphrey off Yes Minister.

That is that the maintenance & growth of government regulation & bureaucracy is inevitable & even desirable. It is futile to try to tackle it because any bit that is removed will just pop up somewhere else.

Although it's a slightly different issue, I'd like to see absolute free international trade. That is that any UK individual or corporation should be able to buy anything (that is lawful in the UK) from anywhere in the world free of tariffs or restrictions. The only role of the UK government should be to make sure this happens and the provision of information. The fewer regulations there are then the fewer enforcement staff will be required.

I would say that Brexit is a step in this direction - there are many more steps to be taken.

Small example: Chlorine-washed chicken from the USA should be required to be labelled as such; then any shopper in the UK should be able to buy it if they so wish.

Yes definitely smaller state changes. 50 less parliamentarians eventually. That will be job losses for a few wives and daughters boyfriends but that will be easily outweighed by the huge leap in number of border force/HMCE employees needed. Sadly we’ll also lose many highly qualified professionals, our research base will diminish, our ability to influence globally will become a bit of a joke. Little inward looking Britain ( or the bit of Britain without Scotland).

All those fretting about the level of benefits can be lettuce pickers for now but train as one of those ‘50,000’ extra nurses and qualify in maybe six years after they’ve completed A levels as distance learning.

Seriously the advantages are for the already affluent. Personally we’ll be much better off. If our children were still at school the advantages they had would be amplified and it would be even easier for them to succeed and secure well paid employment.

I’m a bit concerned about healthcare because I cannot get private health insurance but we’ve been able to move to an area with excellent hospitals and schools, in a Tory safe seat - so less likely to struggle as some areas undoubtedly will. If need be, we can always pay from savings so it’s not a huge worry. Increased mortality due to poverty is unlikely to have a huge personal effect but it might mean less burdensome frail elderly needing long term care. Which is just as well as we are going to lose a huge pool of willing care workers. Luckily, we’ll not be affected unduly.

Our nice rural area has very low crime rates. Probably none within a five mile radius - maybe the odd speeding motorist who is pretty safe from being caught. I don’t suppose the increased polarisation of wealth will create problems here like it will in the cities. We don’t have disaffected teenagers. We don’t have a gang culture. We even have a youth club still. It might even make getting decent cleaners easier.

The pound is likely to become unstable, I guess but luckily our investments aren’t directly related to the pound, so won’t be too badly affected. Pity anyone whose life savings are held in U.K. alone. That hard gained nest egg may be just an empty shell.

Squire, but global trade doesn't work that way! So many are clueless about this. Even I don't claim to be an expert. WTO rules kick in the absence of other agreements. We already have perfectly good agreements that protect quality and standards.

From Gov.uk as to what happens post 31 January when the UK leaves the EU.

As there is no trade agreement between the UK and another country after Brexit, you will have to trade with that country under World Trade Organization (WTO).

WTO rules state that the same trading terms must be applied to all countries, unless there is a trade agreement between 2 or more countries. This is known as Most Favoured Nation treatment.

Most Favoured Nation means that the UK cannot offer better trading terms to one country and not another, unless it has a trade agreement that allows it to do so.

, I'd like to see absolute free international trade.

Erm, the UK might struggle to achieve this unilaterally. The UK can remove all tariffs if it chooses (ok under WTO rules so long as it is applied across the board) but every other country can impose tariffs on UK-originating products, effectively destroying UK manufacturing.

You are assuming we (or indeed anybody) knows what they are.