DC15 wants to identify as female

[FrogInAHat23]

I'm still struggling to figure out how I feel about this, to be honest. DS (now DD?) wants to identify as female. They are 15. I fully subscribe to the 'do no harm' school of thinking, but it has raised so many questions for me. Saying they identify as female isn't hurting anyone (although there will be some close-minded individuals who are offended by that, which I don't think should be a barrier). However, what do I do if they say they want to use women's toilets or changing rooms (esp if a unisex version isn't available)? They identify as female (and is very effeminate, to be fair). We haven't discussed the whole sex change op situation yet, and I'm wary of bringing it up because I don't want to put ideas in their head (given the risks etc I'd rather they didn't!). DC has ASD and is very young (mentally) for their age. I've been buying them makeup and very feminine clothing, which they wear around the house. I had hoped it would just be a case of having a DS who was more feminine with feminine tastes, but it seems not.

I think my feeling is that, while DC has male genitalia then they ought to stick with unisex and mens changing rooms / toilets. I think. Argh.

What do you think? I know trans stuff is a hot topic at the moment, this isn't me trying to get a response from people. This is the genuine situation I find myself in currently!

[Bezalelle]

This trans thing is Political, only Political, it’s been designed by the far left to bring disorder to the Country and to ultimately bring Socialism and then Communism into this Country

This is absolute embarrassing bollocks. The British Communist Party is the only party that is gender critical. Marxist materialism and all that.

[rhubarbcrumbles]

I wouldn't contact Mermaids as they are biased.

However I do agree with 'better a live daughter than a dead son' line. as I'd rather my child was alive than dead no matter what, whether it's trans issues or anything else.

[JAPAB]

Oh I see, so saying you're a girl not because of biology but because you wear make up and skirts isn't that? How insulting.

Who has said that they are a girl because they wear make up and skirts? (That would be an example of the assumptions I mentioned that the OP could expect to be made).

Anyway, yes both sides are ideological positions. Unless if you think there are stone tablets handed down to us by God himself telling us what words in the language have to mean or denote, then neither advocating a move away from the original biological meanings of the words, nor resisting such a movenent, is politically neutral.

[thatdamnwoman]

BanginChoons you said:

Transgender teens who are unsupported by their families have a greatly increased risk of self harm and suicide than their peers.

No they don't, this is a myth based on flimsy research. This goes into details:

www.transgendertrend.com/the-suicide-myth/

Please stop disseminating disinformation.

[OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg]

I’ve a lovely friend whose DH told her after 25 years of marriage and 2 kids that he has always seen himself as a woman and went onto transition - so many wasted years, so many regrets

I read this and I think "poor wife, poor children, to have their lives blown apart through no fault of their own". Too many echoes of the Transwidows over in FWR and what they've been put through.

[Tinkobell]

OP.....your DC is quite young. I can't but feel that as they grow and become more independent they will naturally develop a sense of where they 'belong' so-to-speak. Currently I'm guessing their life is quite narrow due to being a school kid. I'd just be impressing that there is no rush, no rush to declare anything, no rush to make big changes. They need time, exposure and experience to figure out what feels 'right'. I can only comment on my teens experience, that being that their generation are incredibly accepting of gender and sexuality. As an 'oldie' I find I'm the one needing to have things patiently explained to me! 😁

[Tinkobell]

@OnlyTheTitOfTheIceberg....that's one view, but another might be "better late than never" - she is still 2 beautiful kids biological father and has a valuable role in their lives. If people never come out, this can lead to depression or suicide. So what's better?

[PencilsInSpace]

Hi OP, I spotted this the other day - a new support group for parents of children who identify as trans or NB and who are looking for a more cautious approach than the affirmation only model.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/lgbt_children/3754514-new-support-group

[PencilsInSpace]

Do you have some sort of alert for mumsnet @JAPAB? I only ever see you on these threads asserting something ridiculous.

He turns up on porn threads too.

[Thinkingabout1t]

Sorry OP, I wrote all that in great haste, without seeing that you've already said your son has ASD.

The International Society for Autism Research said last year "The over-representation of ASD among individuals clinically referred for Gender Dysphoria (GD) has been observed across multiple sites internationally; up to 25% of youth gender referrals present with significant autism symptoms."
insar.confex.com/insar/2018/webprogram/Session3940.html

However, gender-identity ideology is now so entrenched, and its supporters so aggressive, that professionals are nervous about expressing any dissent. People have lost their jobs and careers for trying to protect children from making such a life-changing mistake.

So it can be difficult to find a therapist who will help your child flourish as he is, at home in his own body.

Transgender Trend has useful information:
www.transgendertrend.com/the-role-of-counsellors-and-therapists/

Parents of ROGD Kids can put you in touch with a parents' support group:
www.parentsofrogdkids.com/support-groups

[honeyytoast]

I think that 15 is old to enough to have a developed enough grasp of gender to understand that liking ‘girl things’ doesn’t have to mean you’re a girl - therefore, if ‘he’ feels sure that he is in the wrong body, then he should be taken seriously.
However it is also fairly young to make any drastic decisions, so show support but encourage taking time to work out exactly what these feelings are.

Definitely have a chat to ‘him’ about why it isn’t really as simple as just using women’s spaces from now on - it can make other women feel uncomfortable, which isn’t a reflection on him/his character but it does need to be respected. That’s something that can be readdressed further down the line if he decides to continue with transitioning.

And I’m sure you will be, but keep an eye on how he’s feeling and his mental health. As another poster mentioned, trans youth are at an increased risk of seriousl mental health problems and (luckily less now than ever, but albeit still significant) risk of social ostracism and bullying

[KatieAlcock]

I think that 15 is old to enough to have a developed enough grasp of gender to understand that liking ‘girl things’ doesn’t have to mean you’re a girl - therefore, if ‘he’ feels sure that he is in the wrong body, then he should be taken seriously.
We don't know enough about ASD to say that.
But a child who feels their body is wrong needs a good psychologist who will work out all the reasons for this, not tell them "OK, change your body".

[Thinkingabout1t]

KatieAlcock "a child who feels their body is wrong needs a good psychologist who will work out all the reasons for this, not tell them "OK, change your body"."

In a nutshell. When did society forget that very obvious point?

[Bezalelle]

It's hard to believe that pushing for hormone treatments and mutation surgery is seen as the liberal, caring position in this debate, while watchful waiting is seen as bigoted. Madness.

[lalafafa]

he's a male and always will be , doesn't matter how he id's. he's gay and needs to focus on that.

[theflushedzebra]

Yes, Bezalelle - it's shocking. "Watchful waiting" and therapy itself, that is anything other than complete affirmation that the child is a girl trapped in a boys body, or vv, is considered "conversion therapy" by places like Mermaids. So there's no room, anymore, for therapy to explore other mental health issues - which are often apparent in gender confused children.

Which is ironic, as the recent whistle blowers at GIDS have said a huge reason for wanting to transition is homosexuality - the child transitions and so is then seen as straight - it's the ultimate conversion therapy.

One of the GIDS whistleblowers was quoted "soon there won't be any gay children left - they'll all have been diagnosed as transgender."

80% of children who are gender confused, and identify as transgender, will desist as they grow up, and go on to reconcile with being their birth sex.

If they go via the Mermaids route, and go on puberty blockers, nearly 100% will go on to physically transition - and that's a lifelong pathway of cross sex hormones, possibly surgery, and possibly infertility. For something that has a 80% desistance rate when just left alone, I wonder what on earth they think they're doing pushing children down the puberty blockers route - and I totally understand why those doctors at GIDS blew the whistle earlier this year.

What shocks and saddens me is that Mermaids is still getting oodles of cash (eg from the Lottery/ Children in Need) when they have been hugely influential in pushing this 100% affirmation thing in GIDS - and that despite the whistle blowers, things are taking so long to change. It should be a national scandal.

[ItsChristmaaaaaaaaas]

Gosh - just read a story in the Telegraph if a male born child of 12 starting puberty blockers on the NHS because mum said they ‘knew’ they were a girl from 3 years old. Child says they will have a womb transplant later.

Oh my.

[theflushedzebra]

OP - I grew up in the 80s - with the likes of David Bowie, Marc Almond, Boy George, Marilyn - all gender benders - all most definitely men.

Explain to your child the difference between sex and gender, that he can present however he likes - and be as feminine as he likes, but that nothing will actually make him a woman. A lifetime of drugs and surgery - to present as the opposite sex - might be the solution to those suffering severe gender dysphoria - to alleviate their suffering - but it should not be the go-to solution for every 15yr old child confused about their gender.

[ActualHornist]

@JAPAB

Oh I see, so saying you're a girl not because of biology but because you wear make up and skirts isn't that? How insulting

Who has said that they are a girl because they wear make up and skirts? (That would be an example of the assumptions I mentioned that the OP could expect to be made)

No, that's an example of me taking your comment and using an example in retort. It was you that said "They probably won't, but they will want to assert their ideology. Which is to retain the traditional definitions of man / woman / boy / girl. And possibly throw in a few assumptions about the OP's child. The sorts of assumptions that are commonly made about trans people." in response to "I'm afraid that people will come along just to attack your child and call them a predator/similar."

My response was to say that if we aren't using biology, then you are using stereotypes. This is the example. I could have said Oh I see, so saying you're a girl not because of biology but because of ?. A person is a girl if they are a female child.

Anyway, yes both sides are ideological positions. Unless if you think there are stone tablets handed down to us by God himself telling us what words in the language have to mean or denote, then neither advocating a move away from the original biological meanings of the words, nor resisting such a movenent, is politically neutral

Biology is not an ideology. It is an observable fact. Unlike religion which is a faith. Not sure what this has to do with this particular conversation.

Anyway @FrogInAHat23 I am genuinely sorry to derail. I wish you well in working this through with your son.

[ActualHornist]

@PencilsInSpace I wish I could say I was surprised about that....

[Thinkingabout1t]

BAISum6367 " I think its fascinating that a child can know from such a young age and with all certainty that it's been born into the wrong body."

You're speaking of a little girl who has always wanted to dress and look like a boy, since the age of two. She's not in the wrong body! pleae don't enourage her to think there's something wrong with her.

I used to want to be a boy because I dreaded growing up female. Life looked so much more interesting for men, and so dull and restricted for women. Luckily there was no 'gender identity' movement back then, to persuade me I needed to change sex.

As I grew up my horizons widened and I discovered women could do pretty much everything I'd thought of as a male pursuit: travel, discoveries, adventures etc. Thank god for feminism.

[PineappleDanish]

Your child is FIFTEEN.

Show me a teenager who is totally secure and sure of themselves at that age, knows exactly who they are and what they're about, and I'll be shocked. It's all about at that age finding your tribe, experimenting, trying things out. All perfectly normal. (tries to forget a 15 year old goth phase)


Maybe your son is gay. Maybe he's bisexual. Maybe he's just not interested in girls OR boys but quite likes makeup and sparkles. That's all absolutely fine but none of that makes him into a girl. This definition of "women = sparkles, high heels and jewellery and man = rugged, football, down the pub with the lads" is so damaging to the people who don't fit into that stereotype. And there are a lot of people who don't fit.

Watchful waiting is absolutely the right thing to do. Support him to understand that there isn't one narrow definition of man or woman and that it's perfectly OK to be a man who likes things considered feminine.

[Lovemusic33]

Thinking I agree, I also wanted to be be a boy from a early age, I wanted to do everything my brother did, didn’t want to play with Barbie’s, didn’t want to wear pretty clothes or bows in my hair, I wanted to climb trees, build dens and do wheelies on my bike. My family used to joke about it, my mum cried at times as she wanted me to wear a dress, she sent me to ballet lessons in hope it would change me, I signed myself up for football club 🤣. I didn’t want to change my sex, I just wanted to be able to do the things boys do and there was no reason why I couldn’t do these and still be a girl.

I still rarely wear makeup or dresses, I can often be found trying to fix my van myself (I try), often covered in mud, oil or paint. I’m still very much a female and wouldn’t change that but I still like to try and prove I’m just as capable as any man.

[BoumBoumBoum]

I love the gender bender references to the 80s as it is so to the point. Loads of men wore makeup back then, and had hair dos and some of them wore frocks and some women wore dungarees and no one gave a shit. Now it’s a “thing” with a cult like internet back up. Let him experiment and be supportive, but please god don’t encourage Him to to think he is female. Not ASD at 15. I have been though similar and come out the other side I hope.

[BoumBoumBoum]

Would you chop your perfectly healthy leg off because you’ve gone off it? Of course not. So what is the issue about the other healthy body parts?