Help me intellectually debate my Tory colleague

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I'm Labour and while I don't agree with all their policies, I am a working class mum and have used/use the NHS regularly after horrific birth complications.

She is in the same boat as me, minus the both injuries, except she's voting conservative. Her arguement for voting Tory.

• things have become harder in this country under the Torries and when they came into power they said it would. Labour left us with no money and cut backs had to be made.

• She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising now but what the Tories are stating they will do is more likely to happen than what Labour are stating.

-Labour will spend millions trying to get Internet to everyone for free by taxing all the rich people. The rich will just leave the country and then they will raise taxes on everyone else so they can continue to fund people who choose not work.

• Labour want immigration to continue how it is now, if your worried about the NHS this would cause more strain to it. Tories want a Australian style points system where we only allow people into the country with skills we need nurses, Doctors,, builders, teachers etc.

-Labour want to bring in higher inheritance tax, wedding tax, holiday tax, savings tax. They also want to get rid of marriage tax allowance.

-Corbyn has supported terrorists all of his career. He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.

I don't know where to begin. Except that I agree Diane Abbott is a raging lunatic. We both love a good debate and have said we are going to try and convince the other to vote Labour/Tory.

Can anyone help me articulate? I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc, but me going: 'well I don't believe that' isn't a very good counter argument. I'm not smart enough to back it up.

I basically want to debunk her point with facts but I'm not very elloquant and I'm worried I'll just BJ Bash which will just make me look silly instead of actually debating.

Why don't you just admit her points are very good ones, and vote Conservative?

The Conservatives are going to increase funding for the NHS. Frankly the NHS needs drastic reform, but that is another debate.

PS the points system is true. Tony Blair opened the borders for anyone (the only country in Europe to do this). Priti Patel wants to stop unskilled immigration and have a points system for skills UK needs, like Australia does.

Your colleague is absolutely right - all those things are true.

Why is it you don't believe her about the points system and immigration? You can't debate two ideas if one of you thinks the other is just lying can you? I'm entirely on her side by the way, but to debate you have to reach on consensus of truth and go from there.

You need to find a say of saying your proposition is better than hers for each point. Find this info in the labour manifesto if you can. If you can't, maybe she has changed your mind?

I’m afraid she’s not wrong, those things are true

@ScreamingLadySutch

Good post!

Why?
Why do you want to debunk these arguments and argue with your friend?
It’s clear she’s made her mind up. Your time would be better spent reading through manifestos and making sure your own decision is as informed as it could be

Another Tory voter here. I second all the points that PPs have made, plus I live in Scotland. The Tories are the only party standing up for the UK against the SNP trying to tear it apart. Only the Tories have promised not to allow a second independence referendum. Corbyn is willing to break up the U.K. in exchange for Sturgeon helping him to form a minority government.

I think it's because all I have/know are examples that don't highlight labour, but rather than ignore her points and bash the conservatives.

E.g, they Doubled UK debt to the highest levels ever of £1.8 trillion. Cut 42 billion from the NHS budget. Cut 21,000 police jobs. Cut 20,000 soldiers. Cut 40% fire service funding.

And while I'd like her opinion on that, all I can do is bash the Torys in my defense.

Difficult to argue as she has made good points

I would say don’t argue with her if you need someone to do it for you-kind if pointless imo!

Labour haven't published details of their immigration policy; no one can say OP's colleague's assertions are true (on that topic).

Al Johnson announced more nurses... the same more nurses that Theresa May announced (back in May 2019). Nothing new there. The 40 hospitals? What is a hospital (listen to election-special More or Less segment on the 40 hospitals). Brexit won't be 'done' for a very very long time.

And while I'd like her opinion on that, all I can do is bash the Torys in my defence
Bit of a useless defence then isn't it?

Your time would be better spent reading through manifestos and making sure your own decision is as informed as it could be

Absolutely!

The fact you are asking for backup kind of shows where you are politically.

If you had the critical thinking skills TM then you would understand that some people can have different political opinions.

It kind of goes back to the point of you coming on here asking for backup to 'win' a discussion that you are obviously out of depth.

Maybe listen to her points and research them instead of trying to go for gotcha's to reinforce your lack of knowledge.

Brilliant! 😂

I'd argue back with

• who is going to pick all the fruit/veg British people don't want to pick?

• Also, I'm not sure 'the Brightest' are going to want to come here anymore when the NHS is so stressful to work in and universities are going to lose EU funding/grants.

You colleague seems like she knows what she is talking about.

It sounds like you have not really thought about why you are voting labour if you have turn to Mumsnet to tell you why you should be voting labour.

You sound like you are just voting labour because you always have, why don't you at least listen to your colleagues arguments?

You sound like you want to make a killer point against your colleague, rather than do what is best for the country.

Well what are your reasons for voting Labour? Not wanting to vote Conservative is different. There are plenty of other parties. How did you choose which of the others to vote for?

Voting a certain way because your parents do isn’t ideal. They have lived in different times, have different goals and needs.
And as for working class, almost everyone works; doctors lawyers and bankers have huge responsibilities. No it’s not like being in a coal mine but even bill gates goes to work daily as does warren buffet. Their budgets are different but they still work.
You need to look and compare policies and FOLLOW THE MONEY TRAIL.
Where is the money coming from, what areas will get cut back to fund promises?
Because the truth is there is only so much money.

Why ?

You vote who you want and she can vote who she wants . If she barks on about the torys just tell her to keep it to herself as already made your mind up . You don't need to convince her and likewise to her so leave it .

• things have become harder in this country under the Torries and when they came into power they said it would. Labour left us with no money and cut backs had to be made.

There was a global financial crash. Caused to a certain extent by stuff that happened in the USA. It was not the fault of Labour but they did take action to stop us turning into Greece.

• She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising now but what the Tories are stating they will do is more likely to happen than what Labour are stating. *

These are personal beliefs- can't be changed though you could ask her why they haven't done all this already. They've been in power for a decade.*

-Labour will spend millions trying to get Internet to everyone for free by taxing all the rich people. The rich will just leave the country and then they will raise taxes on everyone else so they can continue to fund people who choose not work.*

You what? Liberalising the networks was never going to cost very much. It will also encourage business and encourage people to work at home- good for everyone really. We have some of the lowest taxes in the developed world, so where are they going to go exactly? If it is so easy to not work, why doesn't she go on benefits?*

• Labour want immigration to continue how it is now, if your worried about the NHS this would cause more strain to it. Tories want a Australian style points system where we only allow people into the country with skills we need nurses, Doctors,, builders, teachers etc. *

Leaving the EU will not lower immigration. The Tories are not going to lower immigration. We need immigrants badly.*

-Labour want to bring in higher inheritance tax, wedding tax, holiday tax, savings tax. They also want to get rid of marriage tax allowance.*

Wedding tax? Holiday tax? You what? And who do you know that claims marriage tax allowance? It's worth £250 a year to rich SAHMs. Who cares!*

-Corbyn has supported terrorists all of his career. He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.*

The first bollox and the second is the usual bilge that she is subject too*.

There you go. Though I'd just blow raspberries at someone this idiotic. It's like a Daily Fail bingo card. The irony of her calling Dianne Abbot stupid!

To date I've always been a life long labour voter but the problem is that when comparing only labour and the tories, your friend is sadly right. The current labour party and it's direction are a shambles, insular, shortsighted and narrow minded. I still think the tories are by far the worst deal for the country and society as a whole, and so shall be voting lib dem based on policies. I'm not sure you're going to be able to convince her, when even long term labour voters are deserting in their droves...

The stuff this colleague is coming out with is utter bullshit. She certainly does not know what she's talking about.

Why are people saying that she knows what she's talking about?

Have I entered a parallel universe?

Any and all of Boris' plans are contingent on how Brexit pans out.

I don't think anyone realistically expects Brexit to bolster the economy in the short or medium term.

If we're led into another recession, any plans for further investment in public services will give way to additional cuts. Countries will seek visas as part of the cost of any trade deal.

God knows what the NHS will look like in ten years time...

"She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising"

She's right. Maybe you should listen instead of trying to have other people come up with counter arguments for you.