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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Help me intellectually debate my Tory colleague

103 replies

Usernamechange1 · 09/12/2019 19:28

I'm Labour and while I don't agree with all their policies, I am a working class mum and have used/use the NHS regularly after horrific birth complications.

She is in the same boat as me, minus the both injuries, except she's voting conservative. Her arguement for voting Tory.

  • things have become harder in this country under the Torries and when they came into power they said it would. Labour left us with no money and cut backs had to be made.
  • She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising now but what the Tories are stating they will do is more likely to happen than what Labour are stating.

-Labour will spend millions trying to get Internet to everyone for free by taxing all the rich people. The rich will just leave the country and then they will raise taxes on everyone else so they can continue to fund people who choose not work.

  • Labour want immigration to continue how it is now, if your worried about the NHS this would cause more strain to it. Tories want a Australian style points system where we only allow people into the country with skills we need nurses, Doctors,, builders, teachers etc.

-Labour want to bring in higher inheritance tax, wedding tax, holiday tax, savings tax. They also want to get rid of marriage tax allowance.

-Corbyn has supported terrorists all of his career. He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.

I don't know where to begin. Except that I agree Diane Abbott is a raging lunatic. We both love a good debate and have said we are going to try and convince the other to vote Labour/Tory.

Can anyone help me articulate? I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc, but me going: 'well I don't believe that' isn't a very good counter argument. I'm not smart enough to back it up.

I basically want to debunk her point with facts but I'm not very elloquant and I'm worried I'll just BJ Bash which will just make me look silly instead of actually debating.

OP posts:
siring1 · 09/12/2019 20:15

Your friend has just convinced me to.not vote labour.

She's seems very clever; you should listen to her more.

OlivaX · 09/12/2019 20:16

Child poverty increased by one percentage point from 2014/15 to levels not seen since 2009/10, while pensioner poverty also increased by one percentage point.

The total number of people living in poverty in the UK now stands at 14 million plus.

These statistics show a worrying increase in both poverty and inequality.

Four million children and two million older people are now living below the breadline.

Those living with a disabled person are more likely than ever to be struggling to make ends meet.

This is a direct result of this Government’s nine wasted years of austerity and punitive social security cuts. The Tories’ shocking failure to tackle the increasing costs of basic essentials, stagnating wages and their ruthless slashing of social security is leaving working families worse off.

MistyCloud · 09/12/2019 20:17

@Usernamechange1

Oh dear........ Wink How embarrassing for you.

You must feel a bit silly now.

thefluffysideofgrey · 09/12/2019 20:18

Bloody hell, we really are a country of utter masochists.

This could be a really fantastic country. People would rather vote to be shafted by Boris & Co.

Genuinely don't get it. People actually believe the shit in the daily mail these days.

Wow.

ThatUserNamesTakenTryAnother · 09/12/2019 20:20

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Amanduh · 09/12/2019 20:21

‘I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc’

Why? Can’t you read up on it? It’s true.

Littlemisschocolate · 09/12/2019 20:24

I think it’s a great idea to ask for help in countering her arguments as a way to deepen your understanding of the issues. Debate sharpens the mind and it is always good to consider the merits of alternative points of view. Good for you OP.

thefluffysideofgrey · 09/12/2019 20:24

It's not true though. It's a sound bite.

As somebody said up thread, all of it is subject to negotiation with the EU and other countries. Not to mention the small matter of getting stuff through Parliament.

Manifestos are not shopping lists. They're ideas. Nothing more.

Better to vote on past performance really.

BMW6 · 09/12/2019 20:27

But why on earth would you want to argue about politics when YOU don't have a clear idea why you are going to vote the way you want to?

You have the right to vote as you choose to. So does she. Why can't you just accept that you have reached different conclusions, don't flipping well argue about it, just vote for whoever you like!

Patroclus · 09/12/2019 20:34

People are still dropping the 'labour wrecked the economy' horseshit with a straight face?

Patroclus · 09/12/2019 20:35

And the NHS is being held up by immigration

Saddler · 09/12/2019 20:37

Vote conservative she's right

SheOfManyNames · 09/12/2019 20:39

Why do you care about her opinions or how she votes?
I am voting labour, but I don't care too much about someone choosing Tory, even if I don't understand why they would Grin.
Fighting and debating what are sometimes deeply-entrenched views isn't going to help anything.

peepholepringle · 09/12/2019 20:42

Your time would be better spent reading through manifestos and making sure your own decision is as informed as it could be

Second this!

SilverySurfer · 09/12/2019 20:43

If you can't do your own research to give you the information you require I don't think you're in a position to intellectually debate with anyone. Your colleague is correct so it's pointless anyway.

I saw an excellent post earlier by ACautionaryTale which I hope she doesn't mind me copying here about what would happen in the unlikely event that Labour won the election:

Entrepreneurs relief scrapped and all capital gains to be be taxed at marginal rate (currently 20% after the allowance) - no incentive for small businesses to try to grow

Dividends to be taxed at marginal rate (which means after they've been taxed at 26% corporation tax they then get taxed again for the recipient meaning they actually get taxed at 66% or worse)

Corporation tax rising from 19% to 21% and 26% if turnover (note not profit) is over £300,000 - you could make a profit of £1000 and still pay 26% tax

Income tax rising to 50% if you happen to earn over £80K - which is only slightly above the MP's salary so they are ok

Married persons allowance scrapped - so a £250 tax rise for the poorest since to qualify you have to be a basic rate tax payer and the spouse has to be earning less than the personal allowance

200% second home tax even if accidentally inheriting or having to move and trying to sell

10% of uk based companies share capital to be "owned" by the government who will then pay some back to the workers - let watch all international companies remove their head quarters from the UK the day after election

Full employment rights from day one - so no chance to get rid early of people who don't perform - which is going to put companies off actually hiring people in the first place or just using temps.

Collective bargaining to be introduced across all sectors - removes the incentive to work harder for better pay or better negotiation

Maternity leave to be increased and flexible working to become a right - thats women having less chance of decent employment then as I for one would not hire one

Government policy to eradicate gender pay gap - the reason for it is because women IN GENERAL tend not to do the higher paid jobs because they don't like the hours, stress, committment or travel and are more family orientated. Women get paid the same for doing the same jobs.

Keeping sunday restrictions on trading - so we're still stuck in the 19th century

Ending two child cap - so basically reverting to paying people to have children whether they can afford it or not

Finding the magic money tree for WASPI women who if they read the news should have known about the pension changes - not anyone's fault if they didnt educate themselves

Rent controls and open ended contracts for renters - so how do you manage to evict the problem tenant? Pushes the balance too far into the hands of the renter and will actually reduce the supply of reasonably affordable rentals.

A Labour government will repeal the Fixed-term Parliaments Act 2011, which has stifled democracy and propped up weak governments. - this is hypocritical when they relied on it to STOP a general election for several months

Brexit - another year of uncertainty before we even start on trade deals.

Read that and inwardly digest and then have an intellectual debate with yourself as to why anyone would vote Labour.

shipperssss · 09/12/2019 20:43

And who do you know that claims marriage tax allowance? It's worth £250 a year to rich SAHMs. Who cares!

What a load of shit! I can tell you I am far from being a 'rich' SAHM and the marriage tax allowance makes a difference for us!

Patroclus · 09/12/2019 20:47

complete lol at all the people desperately trying to get you to shut up and vote in their favour before you do something awful like find out facts.

  • things have become harder in this country under the Torries and when they came into power they said it would. Labour left us with no money and cut backs had to be made.

Things have become harder because tory austerity has failed and the economy is in worse shape than ever ater recovering under labour.

  • She dosn't believe for a second that labour will do all they are promising now but what the Tories are stating they will do is more likely to happen than what Labour are stating.

Her thoughts arnt relevant

-Labour will spend millions trying to get Internet to everyone for free by taxing all the rich people. The rich will just leave the country and then they will raise taxes on everyone else so they can continue to fund people who choose not work.

Why shouldnt businesses and homes have good internet? it would be good for the economy and has been done in other countries. Its been endorsed by economists

  • Labour want immigration to continue how it is now, if your worried about the NHS this would cause more strain to it. Tories want a Australian style points system where we only allow people into the country with skills we need nurses, Doctors,, builders, teachers etc.

As I said before, Drs have said immigration is propping up the NHS, we need it for staff and in other areas. We already have this pissing 'points system' the little englanders endlessly go on about.

-Labour want to bring in higher inheritance tax, wedding tax, holiday tax, savings tax. They also want to get rid of marriage tax allowance.

TIme for the super rich who destroyed the economy to pay their share, the poor cant take the burden any longer

-Corbyn has supported terrorists all of his career. He also will willing have someone as stupid as Diane Abbott the third most powerful person in the country.

The tories are in coalition with the political wing of the UDA

I don't know where to begin. Except that I agree Diane Abbott is a raging lunatic. We both love a good debate and have said we are going to try and convince the other to vote Labour/Tory.

DIanne Abbots background is impressive, and why dont Grayling and Morgan get similar comments (well we know why)

Can anyone help me articulate? I don't believe what she is saying with the points system and Immigration etc, but me going: 'well I don't believe that' isn't a very good counter argument. I'm not smart enough to back it up.

I basically want to debunk her point with facts but I'm not very elloquant and I'm worried I'll just BJ Bash which will just make me look silly instead of actually debating.

thefluffysideofgrey · 09/12/2019 20:50

If you can afford to stay at home, you're either disabled which is fair enough or, your partner can afford to support you.

I'd happily pay £250 a year for a decent country. Sounds like a bargain to me.

maddening · 09/12/2019 20:51
EstoLargo · 09/12/2019 20:52

The married tax allowance is certainly not only claimed by rich SAHMs - there are plenty of low income couples, retired or not, who claim it - or who should claim it. You could argue it unfairly favours married ppl over ‘common law’ set ups - but don’t make it a haves/have nots’ thing.

Justanotherlurker · 09/12/2019 20:53

complete lol at all the people desperately trying to get you to shut up and vote in their favour before you do something awful like find out facts.

No, we are laughing at someone who lacks the critical thinking skills to debate and instead calls for a simple call to action to post simplistic answers to complex issues. Much like how you think you posting your answers will somehow turn her friend.

The OP is showing herself up here, not her friend, everyone trying to placate her is just as guilty instead of telling someone to educated themselves.

Jenpop234 · 09/12/2019 20:58

Why don't you just respect her opinion and agree to disagree?! Seriously, I was speaking to a woman at work the other day who was no longer talking to her daughter because they had voted different ways on brexit. Grow up!
I'm lucky because my mum is a liberal Christian and my dad is an atheist conservative so although there has been plenty of lively debate growing up, we all agree to respect each others opinions, maybe you could do the same.

cardibach · 09/12/2019 21:01

Your friend is talking bollocks for reasons others have explained. You, however are also talking bollocks with your ‘Diane Abbott is a lunatic’ crap. Come back when you have achieved a tenth of what she has.
Diane Abbott achievements

somethingwittynotshitty · 09/12/2019 21:02

Your colleague is incorrect and a sad mixture of naive and selfish, but you'll save your sanity if you remember that you can't argue with stupid. Vote with your conscience and don't get dragged into pointless arguments with those without one.

SaveTheTreesPlease · 09/12/2019 21:03

She’s right OP, we should all definitely vote for a PM who disparages women, the children of women who work (all criminals in the making, apparently), foreigners, Muslims, environmental activists, the poor....

Why wouldn’t you want a lying, morally bankrupt misogynist running the country? I know I do! Vote Tory!

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